Nord Lead A1 - Why ADR envelopes?

[Shy]

The Nord Modular synths are definitely not for most people, because they don't (and couldn't possibly) have an interface that's streamlined and "fixed" enough to really be intuitive, and the only real intuitiveness is possible in the software interface, but that's also not nearly as intuitive as a simple fixed architecture with a fixed hardware interface, which is enough for most people by far, anyway.

Nord Lead 4 is not just their best product ever (although G2 is my favorite and in general better technically, but that's something else), I'd say it's by far the best virtual analog keyboard and it's very simple to use. A1 is a keyboard/synth that's so dumbed down that the product itself is not even remotely as adequate as a musical instrument as the company's other and prior and almost everyone else's musical instruments that are within the same category. Maybe Clavia's customers really are mostly idiots, but I don't believe it, I believe that Clavia trying to be the Apple of the keyboard world, as evident from their current virtual piano, organ and synth prices and A1's terrible architecture, is another bad move.

[itoa]

This approach is well executed in several synths, like Alesis Micron. There are just 3 macro knobs configurable per preset.

Clavia made a product for people who understand how to set oscillators, use morphs, effects and filters, but for whom ADSR is too complicated. (halo?)

Well having 3 knobs, they could use much better ADAD, but this introduces a concept of sustain level :]

Nevertheless I would like to hear an opinion of owner.

[ghettosynth]

Christopher from Nord tells SOS that the product is intended for users that aren't as knowledgeable about synthesis. He also talks about how the chorus in the unit can be used for a string ensemble type sound. Finally, he talks about how the oscillator section is either one or two oscillators depending upon how it's set.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sun-ix2DluE

[shalako]

The point was to bring the price down. You pay less you get less features.

[ghettosynth]

The point was to bring the price down. You pay less you get less features.

I don't think that there's any confusion that fewer knobs=lower cost. The question is why choose ADR over ADSD when both are three knob solutions. Now, if you mean that the choice was intentional to drive sales of the lead 4, perhaps.

[tayholliday]

Could one achieve a full ADSR on the A1 by using two slots? The first slot would cover the attack and decay part of the envelope, while the second slot would cover the sustain and release parts of the envelope. The second slot's overall volume would determine the sustain level.

[barryfell]

Has anyone actually played both the 4 and A1, or at least just the A1? Reviews are few on the ground.

Of course ADR envelopes are an issue to some degree, but how does the synth actually perform in practice? Are there ways round it, or do other features make up for not having ADSR?

There are features of the 4 and A1 I want, so I'm trying to make my mind up which one to buy.

tbh I'm not that fussed if there are some types of sound I can't get with the A1 due to the ADR envelopes, as I have plenty other synth options. Being able to more quickly dial in sounds than on some synths, which seems to be the premise of the A1, is an attractive thought.

[Shy]

First of all, why do you need to buy one of them, if you have many other synth options? For the sound? NL4 is better, it simply has better sounding filters and the oscillators can be shaped in more ways and pushed further. Interface? NL4 is better, very obviously. Simplicity? Both synths are dead simple, A1 is just more annoying, because you're stuck with oversimplified operation modes that barely give you quicker results when compared to NL4 which is as simple and quick as polyphonic subtractive hardware synths get without resorting to oversimplification. If a few extra seconds of setting up the parameters are that important to someone, then fine.

[barryfell]

First of all, why do you need to buy one of them, if you have many other synth options?

I feel like it would compliment my other options. (Sub Phatty, Analog Four, Matrix 1000, Pulse 2, Blofeld) Every synth has its pros and cons and I feel there is room for a Nord Lead in my set up. I appreciate I don't 'need' it, but I'd simply like to have one as they look like fun to use and sound great. Also, I often use most my synths at the same time so I could do with one with a multi-timbral out such as a Nord Lead to give me more tracks without bouncing.

For the sound? NL4 is better, it simply has better sounding filters and the oscillators can be shaped in more ways and pushed further. Interface? NL4 is better, very obviously. Simplicity? Both synths are dead simple, A1 is just more annoying, because you're stuck with oversimplified operation modes that barely give you quicker results when compared to NL4 which is as simple and quick as polyphonic subtractive hardware synths get without resorting to oversimplification. If a few extra seconds of setting up the parameters are that important to someone, then fine.

Fair enough. With regards to the filters, I've heard others say they prefer the A1, but it's of course subjective. As for the sound, both sound great to me, but from the demo's I've heard I've personally preferred the A1. There isn't much in it though, and ideally I'd get a chance to play with them both before buying but that may not be possible, hence why I'm looking for people who have used both.

Anyway, yeah good points about operation. Both look very easy so there is probably little to be gained speed wise with the A1. I'll keep making my mind up for the time being as there is a pretty equal balance of pros and cons for me at the moment.

[zerocrossing]

I don't think anyone's saying Clava thinks it's customers are idiots. (are they?) I think we're just saying that they sometimes seem a bit confused about their customers.

I said that I think someone at Clavia thinks their customers are idiots. Based on their absolutely idiotic decision to go with ADR/ASR and omit ADSR. I know about Clavia's history, the great modular series (especially G2), and Rob Hordijk's awesome and extensive work in general. I had owned a NL2x rack for a long time. I've checked out everything else, and I think Nord Lead 4 is a great synth and overall product. A1 is a huge disappointment in too many ways, not just sound-wise (NL4 is much better), but feature-wise. I think it's a truly idiotic instrument in general aimed at a crowd that doesn't really exist. Sure, many people are "preset users", but the restricted architecture they try to show off as "simplified but powerful" only complicates things and severely limits users' possibilities, and it's just a hugely unsuccessful attempt to dumb things down for what someone thinks is a super dumb user base.

I kind of agree with you, though one man's "dumbed down" is another man's "immediate." You could say my Sub Phatty is dumbed down, but there is something nice and refreshing about a good sounding, simple subtractive synth with a few interesting twists and simple controls.

I also think that from what I've heard of the NL4 and A1 demos that I kind of dig the sound of the A1 more. Again, opinion of course, but if Nord released an OS update that allowed aftertouch via MIDI to control various parameters I'd consider the A1 before the NL4 even if they were the exact same price.

Overall though, I think what Clavia (at least their Nord line) suffers from is high retail cost for what they are. You could get away with that back in the '90s and early '00s, but in today's world of very high quality VSTi instruments you can't. Sure, you'll have the hardware only people who wouldn't dare use a plug-in synth, but they're a diminishing breed. The A1 should be in the price range of the Blofeld, IMO.

[zerocrossing]

First of all, why do you need to buy one of them, if you have many other synth options?

I feel like it would compliment my other options. (Sub Phatty, Analog Four, Matrix 1000, Pulse 2, Blofeld) Every synth has its pros and cons and I feel there is room for a Nord Lead in my set up. I appreciate I don't 'need' it, but I'd simply like to have one as they look like fun to use and sound great. Also, I often use most my synths at the same time so I could do with one with a multi-timbral out such as a Nord Lead to give me more tracks without bouncing.

For the sound? NL4 is better, it simply has better sounding filters and the oscillators can be shaped in more ways and pushed further. Interface? NL4 is better, very obviously. Simplicity? Both synths are dead simple, A1 is just more annoying, because you're stuck with oversimplified operation modes that barely give you quicker results when compared to NL4 which is as simple and quick as polyphonic subtractive hardware synths get without resorting to oversimplification. If a few extra seconds of setting up the parameters are that important to someone, then fine.

Fair enough. With regards to the filters, I've heard others say they prefer the A1, but it's of course subjective. As for the sound, both sound great to me, but from the demo's I've heard I've personally preferred the A1. There isn't much in it though, and ideally I'd get a chance to play with them both before buying but that may not be possible, hence why I'm looking for people who have used both.

Anyway, yeah good points about operation. Both look very easy so there is probably little to be gained speed wise with the A1. I'll keep making my mind up for the time being as there is a pretty equal balance of pros and cons for me at the moment.

As a A1 alternative, check out the KingKORG. For about half the cost (used) of a new A1 rack you get a synth that sounds just as good... maybe in some ways better. A lot more filter options. Tons of cool osc types including PCM sounds. It's ugly (IMO) and it's UI is way worse than any Nord (to get the most out of it prepare to menu dive) but now that I've had it for some time I find I really love it. Much more than I liked my NL2, and that was quite a lot.

[barryfell]

I don't think anyone's saying Clava thinks it's customers are idiots. (are they?) I think we're just saying that they sometimes seem a bit confused about their customers.

I said that I think someone at Clavia thinks their customers are idiots. Based on their absolutely idiotic decision to go with ADR/ASR and omit ADSR. I know about Clavia's history, the great modular series (especially G2), and Rob Hordijk's awesome and extensive work in general. I had owned a NL2x rack for a long time. I've checked out everything else, and I think Nord Lead 4 is a great synth and overall product. A1 is a huge disappointment in too many ways, not just sound-wise (NL4 is much better), but feature-wise. I think it's a truly idiotic instrument in general aimed at a crowd that doesn't really exist. Sure, many people are "preset users", but the restricted architecture they try to show off as "simplified but powerful" only complicates things and severely limits users' possibilities, and it's just a hugely unsuccessful attempt to dumb things down for what someone thinks is a super dumb user base.

I kind of agree with you, though one man's "dumbed down" is another man's "immediate." You could say my Sub Phatty is dumbed down, but there is something nice and refreshing about a good sounding, simple subtractive synth with a few interesting twists and simple controls.

Agreed. Likewise I love the relatively simple interface of my SubP, and tend to get a bit out of my depth with certain elements of my more complex synths. That's not to say I won't keep learning them, but the option of simplicity is appealing when I want to get something down quickly.

Overall though, I think what Clavia (at least their Nord line) suffers from is high retail cost for what they are. You could get away with that back in the '90s and early '00s, but in today's world of very high quality VSTi instruments you can't. Sure, you'll have the hardware only people who wouldn't dare use a plug-in synth, but they're a diminishing breed. The A1 should be in the price range of the Blofeld, IMO.

It probably is over priced, but think about how much more it would have to be cut down to be in the price range of the Blofeld.

[ghettosynth]

Overall though, I think what Clavia (at least their Nord line) suffers from is high retail cost for what they are. You could get away with that back in the '90s and early '00s, but in today's world of very high quality VSTi instruments you can't. Sure, you'll have the hardware only people who wouldn't dare use a plug-in synth, but they're a diminishing breed. The A1 should be in the price range of the Blofeld, IMO.

I've never understood the appeal. I think that they've always been overpriced. I remember people talking about it, and the virus, and drooling all over them like they were something special. I thought that they sounded decent, for a digital synth, but I didn't think that they were so much better sounding than romplers, given that one had at least one real analog synth, that they were justified.

The G1 was different, it was truly unique at the time. There was certainly no analog equivalent and there was no digital equivalent either. Being able to build modular analog machines in the studio and take them on the stage, without a computer, seemed almost like science fiction. It didn't sound better than good analog, but it was close enough and far more powerful than anything else I had at the time.

They sound better today, of course, algorithms have improved, but, meh, I'd spend 2K on something vintage and beautiful and leave polyphony to plugins or workstations, which, also sound much better today.

[barryfell]

First of all, why do you need to buy one of them, if you have many other synth options?

I feel like it would compliment my other options. (Sub Phatty, Analog Four, Matrix 1000, Pulse 2, Blofeld) Every synth has its pros and cons and I feel there is room for a Nord Lead in my set up. I appreciate I don't 'need' it, but I'd simply like to have one as they look like fun to use and sound great. Also, I often use most my synths at the same time so I could do with one with a multi-timbral out such as a Nord Lead to give me more tracks without bouncing.

For the sound? NL4 is better, it simply has better sounding filters and the oscillators can be shaped in more ways and pushed further. Interface? NL4 is better, very obviously. Simplicity? Both synths are dead simple, A1 is just more annoying, because you're stuck with oversimplified operation modes that barely give you quicker results when compared to NL4 which is as simple and quick as polyphonic subtractive hardware synths get without resorting to oversimplification. If a few extra seconds of setting up the parameters are that important to someone, then fine.

Fair enough. With regards to the filters, I've heard others say they prefer the A1, but it's of course subjective. As for the sound, both sound great to me, but from the demo's I've heard I've personally preferred the A1. There isn't much in it though, and ideally I'd get a chance to play with them both before buying but that may not be possible, hence why I'm looking for people who have used both.

Anyway, yeah good points about operation. Both look very easy so there is probably little to be gained speed wise with the A1. I'll keep making my mind up for the time being as there is a pretty equal balance of pros and cons for me at the moment.

As a A1 alternative, check out the KingKORG. For about half the cost (used) of a new A1 rack you get a synth that sounds just as good... maybe in some ways better. A lot more filter options. Tons of cool osc types including PCM sounds. It's ugly (IMO) and it's UI is way worse than any Nord (to get the most out of it prepare to menu dive) but now that I've had it for some time I find I really love it. Much more than I liked my NL2, and that was quite a lot.

The KingKORG had crossed my mind, but I just don't like the look of the interface, as I want as little menu diving as possible on this occasion, plus I don't really have space. It really has to be another desktop. Plus the KingKORG is the same price new as an A1R new where I'm from.

[barryfell]

Does the 4 have the multi-focus feature of the A1? I had a search but couldn't find it mentioned.

I really like the sound of that feature. Being able to simultaneously control elements of a multi-timbral patch is one thing that is impossible on some synths.