How reliable are your hardware synths?

[masterhiggins]

One of the things that prevents me from buying hardware synths is the fact that if they break down, you're pretty much at the whim of whatever authorized/unauthorized repair center that's capable of fixing your issue. Depending on how fugged up it is I'm sure has a bearing on the repair price/turnaround time. By the time you send it in, get a quote, pay shipping, does it ever become pointless to fix it? Like let's say I buy a Minibrute used for like $400. If something fries out on it, do you think it would make sense to try getting it fixed?

Before I get ahead of myself, does anyone have any experience with getting hardware fixed by a repair shop? What was it like and how much did it cost?

I know that computers break down all the time but I'm a bit more experienced troubleshooting those problems and when a computer dies (if properly backed up) you can just move your projects over to a new one and you're on your way again. At least that's how I've justified it.

-Sam

[ghettosynth]

One of the things that prevents me from buying hardware synths is the fact that if they break down, you're pretty much at the whim of whatever authorized/unauthorized repair center that's capable of fixing your issue. Depending on how fugged up it is I'm sure has a bearing on the repair price/turnaround time. By the time you send it in, get a quote, pay shipping, does it ever become pointless to fix it? Like let's say I buy a Minibrute used for like $400. If something fries out on it, do you think it would make sense to try getting it fixed?

So I wouldn't buy a used minibrute for $400, FYI. But as far as reliability, analog synths are very reliable up to a point. There are two general areas of things that break, things that are mechanical, and things that get abused electrically. That abuse can be external, or internal.

The mechanical things are easy (to understand, not always to fix), pots, encoders, and switches wear out. How long this takes depends, in part, on how and how well they're treated. I wouldn't worry about this on a relatively new instrument like the minibrute unless it shows signs of obvious abuse. Other mechanical things that wear out, but are usually easy to fix by someone who knows what they're doing is jacks. They often develop intermittent connections to a pc board.

Electrically, basic analog circuits seldom have problems, but they can, they're not foolproof. The things that often break are things that are "electrically" abused. This includes ANYTHING connected to a jack. It also includes less obvious things like displays that sometimes have limited life, or high voltage backlight circuits. It can also include certain types of circuits that are more sensitive to static electricity. I've repaired many synths by replacing CMOS gates that have died. Voltage regulators are a common area of failure because they get hot, and heat kills. For newer digital stuff, expect anything with a floppy disk to have a dead floppy disk.

I've fixed a lot of synths, but, very few of my synths have needed repair after I've repaired them. So, as a whole, they're fairly reliable. The reason that I've fixed so many, if you couldn't guess, is that I've purchased a lot of broken synths with the express intent of buying either for parts or to repair.

Before I get ahead of myself, does anyone have any experience with getting hardware fixed by a repair shop? What was it like and how much did it cost?

I used to work professionally in consumer electronics repair, I still do a lot of repair, just not for you. By you, I mean anyone who's not me. For generic circuits, such as power supplies (e.g. the voltage regulator problem above), any reasonably competent local tech should be able to fix things for you without breaking the bank. But, let's be clear, don't take a synth to be repaired expecting less than a $100 bill.

The problem with more synth specific stuff is that it's specialized knowledge that not every tech has the time to grok or chase down if it is not already a knowledge area for them. You really should seek out a specialized analogue synth repair tech for this, and, unless you live in a big city, it probably won't be local to you. Also, expect the price to be double or more, especially factoring in shipping.

I know that computers break down all the time but I'm a bit more experienced troubleshooting those problems and when a computer dies (if properly backed up) you can just move your projects over to a new one and you're on your way again. At least that's how I've justified it.

It's nothing like computer "repair" as most people experience it, that is, the computer isn't actually broken, or, as you describe, there is nothing wrong with the hard drive. You have to actually have skill and knowledge of electronics and when something doesn't work, it's just broken. Rare is the case where a synth just needs a "clean", or a "tuneup", or an "alignment." When it doesn't work, it's broken, and it needs to be repaired.

Vintage synths will often have one or more of these problems and additionally face problems of parts being unavailable. It's usually possible to get parts for new synths, but, they generally use surface mount components. This doesn't mean that they're not repairable, but it does often mean additional challenge when diagnosing the problem. You can't just unplug the filter chip, for example, to diagnose where it is the filter or the cv demux.

In general, reliability isn't a huge problem for new synths. I wouldn't worry much about buying anything by Arturia or DSI, for example, so long as everything works today, there's no scratching in the pots, and wiggling the jacks doesn't cause crackling in the audio. For vintage synths you should do your homework before you buy as many synths have specific problems that are known to cause challenges.

Also, most of your local techs that aren't specialists, are shit. Sorry, that's just the truth. Just because they contract to guitar center, doesn't mean a damn thing. The problem is, there's not a lot of money in it unless you really go out of your way to make it your thing, so, it's tough to find a good tech. I've done repairs for some people, but no, I don't have any references that I'm going to bother to dig up, and no, I won't cut you a deal, and no, I don't give a shit if you give me your business, and no, no repair comes with a guarantee, you're paying for service. But, yes, I know how to fix analog synths and I know how to do it correctly. There are quite a few guys like me, that are able to fix synths, but have no interest in trying to make it their main line of work. If you don't know what you're doing, it's good to have someone like that as a friend/neighbor, and it's best to remember that they're well aware of how much of a pain in the ass it is to find a good tech. Bring a crisp Ben Franklin with you when you ask them to repair your synth the first time, pay the rest of the bill in full when you pick up your working synth, not next week, or on payday, and don't delay picking up your synth when they tell you that it's ready.

Now, if you're in a big city, you should be able to find someone who makes it their full time thing, ask around. Obviously, I couldn't give you any recommendations since I do all of my own repair work.

[Aloysius]

I had a Juno 106 years ago. The internal battery went in it. I had no idea what the problem was at the time.

I just copied and pasted the fix for it from the internet as an example of a problem you could face with hardware:

Unfortunately, a stock Juno-106 has the battery soldered directly to the CPU board. To replace it you have to remove the board, unsolder the original battery and replace (most people replace them with a battery clip so it's easier next time it runs out.)

I had a fostex 8-track years ago as well. I must have sent it in for repair every other week before moving again and eventually throwing it out.

It's kind of a romantic idea to have a lot of hardware imho.

[JCJR]

It is kind of the luck of the draw, but I consider hardware a better investment than software (given the broad assumption that one should not buy that which one does not like a bunch and want to keep).

Have this year tossed out two synths that lay neglected in the old studio for too many years, but on the other hand dug out at least seven so far that continue to work great.

I have multiple synths from two to three decades old that work fine, but nary a computer even a decade old that I know fer sure works. Kept an old 68k toaster mac as a souvenir that booted up long ago when put on the shelf, but dunno if it will still boot. Or what use it would be if it will still boot. Old synths from that era still sound as good as they ever did

Got me a big old cardboard box of obsolete music software install cd's-- programs, plugins, softsynths, that are deader than a doorknob, abandoned by out of biz developers, impossible to run on any computer I have owned for many moons. To say nothing about all the old obsolete programs on floppies. Finally threw that box in the trash.

So it is probably the luck of the draw, but seems I had better luck with hardware.

[tehlord]

All the hardware I've had has been rock solid. The only issue I had was with a broken convertor chip in my 15 year old Supernova, which I got fixed for about £50 by Novation.

Unless of course you buy something from Arturia, in which case it'll probably die anywhere within the first 10 minutes to 10 months of ownership and they may well (if you're really lucky) send you some parts to fix it yourself (no really, this actually happens).

[Lotuzia]

Vintage synths will often have one or more of these problems and additionally face problems of parts being unavailable. ...;.

Thats the real problem actually. Some parts are either 1/ Unavailable 2/ At least rather to very expensive. And the problem will only be worse as years pass. But its well worth it imo

[ghettosynth]

Vintage synths will often have one or more of these problems and additionally face problems of parts being unavailable. ...;.

Thats the real problem actually. Some parts are either 1/ Unavailable 2/ At least rather to very expensive. And the problem will only be worse as years pass. But its well worth it imo

I agree, but, since I do my own repairs, I'm not subject to the sticker shock of a repair bill that can sometimes be as high as the purchase price of the synth.

I should say, that I'm largely talking about analog synths although many of the same issues apply to digital synths as well.

[UltimateOutsider]

Before I get ahead of myself, does anyone have any experience with getting hardware fixed by a repair shop? What was it like and how much did it cost?

In 2012 I bought six 80s-era Roland rack synths off eBay and another online retailer who sold used gear. Every one of those synths was sold as "100% working and tested" but of those six only two worked as expected, and one of them wasn't playable at all.

It is MY BAD for not simply going back to the sellers and saying, "You sold me a broken synth." Instead, I sent the two most afflicted synths (about $3000 worth of gear) to a well-known, and well-respected vintage synth repair shop. Even though the initial repair estimates he gave me were 2-5 weeks, I received one synth after 4 months (and it died 2 weeks after I got it back), and after he had kept my other synth for NINE months, he sent it back at my request, without having even opened the thing up- although he was kind enough to remove my MKS-80's rack ears and not bother returning them. Ever try shopping for replacement rack ears for a 2U Roland rack synth? (He charges up front for repairs, and kept the money, BTW. I basically paid him $500 to babysit my broken synths.)

I ended up finding a local guy who fixed those same two synths within three days, for less money.

There is no way in hell I'll buy another vintage synth online. The seller can always say, "It was working when I packed it up. It is a 30-year-old synth after all." There is also no way in hell I'll ever send another synth to a repair shop who A) Charges up-front and B) Isn't local.

[ghettosynth]

Before I get ahead of myself, does anyone have any experience with getting hardware fixed by a repair shop? What was it like and how much did it cost?

In 2012 I bought six 80s-era Roland rack synths off eBay and another online retailer who sold used gear. Every one of those synths was sold as "100% working and tested" but of those six only two worked as expected, and one of them wasn't playable at all.

It is MY BAD for not simply going back to the sellers and saying, "You sold me a broken synth." Instead, I sent the two most afflicted synths (about $3000 worth of gear)

2 X MKS-80? Just curious, I can't think of any other Roland rack synth worth that much, ok, I guess one MKS-80 could be over 2K.

Most of the roland rack synths are super reliable, comparatively. The MKS-50 is especially so, there just isn't much to go wrong, it has a simple standard hitachi lcd module, so no worries if the display goes bad. The MKS-30 has the same problem as the Juno-106 and if it isn't broken when you buy it, and it hasn't had the voice issue dealt with, it's not a matter of if it's going to break, but when.

BTW: I'm sorry for your bad experience.

[UltimateOutsider]

2 X MKS-80? Just curious, I can't think of any other Roland rack synth worth that much, ok, I guess one MKS-80 could be over 2K.

Well this was holiday season 2011 to the first couple weeks of 2012. The going rate for rev.4 MKS-80s at the time was $2500. (Price has dropped a bit since then I think.) The other synth I sent in cost me $500. I did in fact buy two rev.4 MKS-80s at the time, but one of them worked!

[ghettosynth]

2 X MKS-80? Just curious, I can't think of any other Roland rack synth worth that much, ok, I guess one MKS-80 could be over 2K.

Well this was holiday season 2011 to the first couple weeks of 2012. The going rate for rev.4 MKS-80s at the time was $2500. (Price has dropped a bit since then I think.) The other synth I sent in cost me $500. I did in fact buy two rev.4 MKS-80s at the time, but one of them worked!

Sure, makes sense. I should add that a large number of synths that I've purchased that supposedly were in perfect condition, were not. I ALWAYS assume that any synth that I buy used will have some problems that I'll have to address and I negotiate accordingly. BTW: I don't buy vintage gear off of ebay, ever, no exceptions.

[JCJR]

Yep, I'd be reluctant to buy used without testing. And scared of buying used at all unless the price is stupid low. Or if the gadget is of such nature that not much can go wrong if the gadget happens to be operational at time of sale.

Have been afraid of buying other people's problems. I must take pretty good care of stuff, because what I buy new generally seems to last. Some cheap hardware is built so cheap, can't realistically expect it to last very long.

I used to do repair long ago but rarely would want to do that any more.

Just about anything is "in theory" repairable, but sometimes a piece has to be cherished indeed to make a lick of sense to fix it. Long ago sometimes saw weird cases, a fella would prize some old broken obsolete gadget so much, as to gladly pay a lot more to have his favorite gadget fixed, than the original cost of the piece, or the cost of replacement with a newer better non obsolete gadget. One old guy loved his ancient falling apart dictation recorder so much, paid the big bucks to bring it back from the dead, because for some reason he was real attached to it.

In music, people seem to get fixated cost is no object repair/refurb on old guitar amps, old stomp boxes, old synths. The same sickness that causes folk to keep 1912 rolls royce autos in driveable condition, maybe.

[Kriminal]

All the hardware I've had has been rock solid. The only issue I had was with a broken convertor chip in my 15 year old Supernova, which I got fixed for about £50 by Novation.

Unless of course you buy something from Arturia, in which case it'll probably die anywhere within the first 10 minutes to 10 months of ownership and they may well (if you're really lucky) send you some parts to fix it yourself (no really, this actually happens).

No probs with my Minibrute here. (i know of 5 other ppl here who havent had any probs either with the Mini/Micro)

I have no probs buying from ebay. You either make sure its local so you can test it properly, or take a chance, and dont spend a fortune on it 'just in case'. That goes for anthing really. Synths, hi-fi seperates, cars.... its common sense.

repairs: ppl who are good have a good reputation. Do some asking around. It prob wont be cheap, but at least it gets done properly. ( and they dont send it back worse than when it came in)

[UltimateOutsider]

repairs: ppl who are good have a good reputation. Do some asking around. It prob wont be cheap, but at least it gets done properly. ( and they dont send it back worse than when it came in)

That's what I thought, too. I chose my first repair dude solely based on the recommendations of others at synth and music forums. And in fact at the time I had not seen any complaints about him. 2 or 3 months after I sent my synths in, though, I started seeing threads popping up from current customers wondering if anyone else was having similar problems with this guy. (These threads usually get locked and deleted pretty quickly, which is likely why there's a lot more positive information out there than negative.)

Also consider that for a customer whose synths and money are essentially being held hostage by some dude in another state, they don't have much incentive for publicly saying anything negative online. Don't want to give him any reasons to flake out even more than he has already. I've seen complaints about this guy pop up the past couple years from about a dozen different people, but I've heard from at least that many other people in private messages who were afraid to say anything in the forums.

I'm sure there are legit, above-board dudes who handle long distance orders, but I've had my fill of synth repair drama. Caveat emptor, brothers.

[goldenanalog]