Pitch bender on Midi controllers

[ras.s]

I've got an A-800 Pro, the five octave version in that product line. The pitch bend starts working quite fast, I'd say five degrees from the centre position. Not a big fan of the Roland pitch/mod stick either, nor of the particular keyboard*. The pitch stick works though and has worked for me since 2011.


* at times it asks for the firmware to be sent to it when firing up the device, and that means trying to toggle a switch that is in a inset under the keyboard, then sending the firmware, then touching the switch again, hoping it works and knowing any settings I've made previously have been reset .... a real pain, to put it short.

[Gonga]

I really like the Roland benders. Quality builds. Is it the 5 degrees of play that you don't like? I used to use an A-300 Pro and never had the problem with firmware.

I'm bummed that joysticks are becoming less and less common. I really wish somebody would offer a choice of wheel or joystick - a modular approach - so that joystick users wouldn't be so limited to just a few models. Synth controllers cater more and more to programmers rather than players. And so the synth's bad rep as an instrument (and synthesists as players) continues to get worse. I think much of the public views synths as nothing but computers that make sounds when you push a button.

[ras.s]

For me it isn't so much about the pitch stick, but more that it's combined with the modulation control. What am I supposed to set it to modulate, if it always returns to zero? Not much use setting it to a lowpass filter cutoff, for instance. With LFO speeds it's useful only in specific setting where the sound by default isn't modulated with a fast LFO. I do kinda like it that the pitch stick works from side to side, but the combination is what wrecks it for me. With some synths that specifically respond to modwheel, it can totally limit the patch because it always goes to that damned zero position. Of course I've got faders on the board as well, but using those is another thing as well since them being at centre then dictates how I position my hands (plus I've got them set up in my DAW to do a specific thing, which I can't then do if I'm going to change their targets). I guess I'd just like a mod wheel as well.

Also I guess in part I'd really just like to have some sort of visual indication of what the pitch bend target is going to be at any given time -- hence I rather do pitch bends as monophonic glides from a note to note on the keyboard. Obviously there is no stick or wheel that's ever going to tell me that, so I probably won't use much bends in the future either .. The way bends are done on Linnstruments and other such layouts is quite cool though.

In any case, my next board isn't going to be a Roland. This particular A-800 didn't convince me of their quality and I'm not going to spend money on seeing if the next one works better (and indeed I've got the idea on the back burner that I'd like to get a second keyboard to pair up with this one). Next time I'll also pay attention that if there is a screen of any kind, it has to be in the centre because that's where I'm going to be. On this one it's on the far left and at least I can't operate it without moving to look at it, which kind of defeats its purpose of quickly showing what's going on.


As for your wish --- there is a company that specifically sells various modulation controllers to be used on the side of the keyboard as modular pieces, I just can't recall what the name of that company is .. Sticks and wheels and LED-faders and combinations, not massive control surfaces but simple little boxes. Anyone recall the name?

edit: ha, found it. http://www.synthesizers.com/q181v1.html There's even whammy bars!

[Gonga]

That company has the right idea - but not the right implementation. They don't offer a single joystick. The ribbon is vertical (just plain stupid like the NI one). The modular concept is good, but it's voltage control - no 14-bit midi. But thanks for the link.

The left end of an instrument should not be a f**king box with crap sticking straight up out of it.

The Powell Probe. Now there's an instrument. Here's Jan's design. Too bad you can't see the tiny whammy stick, which is just below the rounded pitch bend region.





Jan complained about Roger's because the left hand was trapped by the guitar-like design:



What some actual player needs to do is talk to these guys about a nice smooth, rounded, ergonomic left-hand shape where you can have your choice of wheels, joystick, ribbon, plus spring-loaded finger bars like the Probe had, all configured such that it doesn't preclude two-handed technique.

[Gonga]

Not sure this is the right section as a Midi controller is not a real instrument I suppose...

Anyway, I have a Roland A-49 and like it, except for the pitch bender, which only starts to have an effect on the pitch at a deflection angle of about 25 degrees or more in either direction. This makes it hard to use the bender in a precise way, so I have to draw pitch lines in the DAW

So, is it a design bug or do the pitch benders on other Midi controllers behave the same way?

I think this behavior is common for many midi pitch joysticks in my experience, though I would guess there is variation. I have an A-49 and it too has a small dead zone, which I have gotten used to just the same as on my Korg joystick, which I think also has a dead zone in the center, though I'm not sure. If you want I can check my other 3 keyboards. Funny thing is, I move between them all the time and have no problem bending, and I use a 3 semitone setting up with an octave (or two) down (whammy bar). I also use the bender exclusively for vibrato with no problems, since I mostly bend only upward for vibrato (like a fretted guitar).

It's really not hard to play with such a joystick once you practice a bit. I think the A-49 is a great controller for the money. I'm disabled and play from my bed. That light and small footprint is perfect for me.

My Novation X-Station has a spring which you can switch off, making the joystick freely moveable in any direction and you can leave it there. It would seem that perhaps it must not have a dead zone...I will make a point of checking next time I play it. In any case, it's a wonderful little controller, though the synth aliases like a 60s am radio

[Gonga]

Oh, and don be dissin' Roland mon. My first synth was a Roland SH-1000, the very first-ever Japanese synth. It had a gorgeous sound and a quality build. I would love one of the new modulars

[ras.s]

The Synthesizers.com stuff, they do have joysticks as well, check the catalogue over there. There's thumb buttons, dual axis whammys and even a module with PC joystick port. And I think this is quite an interesting setup as well:



Of course one could scrap the modules on the left side and just have that whammy there on top -- I'd expect that to be quite sweet with a keytar type of setup, quite different from having everything on the left side (probably would need to strap it a bit differently). Those keytars though, I think they're different type of beasts altogether compared to regular keyboards. The ergonomics are bound to be different and so should the component design be.

And true that the Synthesizers.com stuff are CV only (except the keyboards, which are MIDI) and would need some sort of converter box to be used with MIDI gear.

[fluffy_little_something]

Not sure this is the right section as a Midi controller is not a real instrument I suppose...

Anyway, I have a Roland A-49 and like it, except for the pitch bender, which only starts to have an effect on the pitch at a deflection angle of about 25 degrees or more in either direction. This makes it hard to use the bender in a precise way, so I have to draw pitch lines in the DAW

So, is it a design bug or do the pitch benders on other Midi controllers behave the same way?

I think this behavior is common for many midi pitch joysticks in my experience, though I would guess there is variation. I have an A-49 and it too has a small dead zone, which I have gotten used to just the same as on my Korg joystick, which I think also has a dead zone in the center, though I'm not sure. If you want I can check my other 3 keyboards. Funny thing is, I move between them all the time and have no problem bending, and I use a 3 semitone setting up with an octave (or two) down (whammy bar). I also use the bender exclusively for vibrato with no problems, since I mostly bend only upward for vibrato (like a fretted guitar).

It's really not hard to play with such a joystick once you practice a bit. I think the A-49 is a great controller for the money. I'm disabled and play from my bed. That light and small footprint is perfect for me.

My Novation X-Station has a spring which you can switch off, making the joystick freely moveable in any direction and you can leave it there. It would seem that perhaps it must not have a dead zone...I will make a point of checking next time I play it. In any case, it's a wonderful little controller, though the synth aliases like a 60s am radio

Oh, and don be dissin' Roland mon. My first synth was a Roland SH-1000, the very first-ever Japanese synth. It had a gorgeous sound and a quality build. I would love one of the new modulars

I am not so sure today's Roland is the same as decades ago, it seems more like a shadow of its former self, making lots of mediocre products. Their best stuff is bass amps and things like that

[aciddose]

Every bender has a deadzone and must have one, otherwise there would be no way to ensure the lever is mechanically in the center position at all times due to variation in the components. (Spring alloys even!)

I've had some gear with a very narrow deadzone, some with a wider zone. It seems to me that typically the deadzone is designed to be equal to the width of the notch (in a wheel) or the handle (of a lever). This is usually about 1cm, or the thickness of the tip of an index finger.

More than this seems a bit extreme, although you can't go any further than that without having other instruments both of the same model and different models to compare to.

Perhaps that is the way it is designed.

On the instruments I have available the deadzone is less than 10º (total arc) wide.

There may be an issue if you're trying to accomplish smooth bipolar bends, which isn't what the bender is designed to do. It is designed for distinct uni-polar bends.

If you want bipolar bends you might consider a ribbon instead. With a ribbon it is possible that the position you initially touch becomes the zero point. Alternatively some allow you to set the zero point with a switch or pedal.

[Gonga]

Every bender has a deadzone and must have one, otherwise there would be no way to ensure the lever is mechanically in the center position at all times due to variation in the components. (Spring alloys even!)

I've had some gear with a very narrow deadzone, some with a wider zone. It seems to me that typically the deadzone is designed to be equal to the width of the notch (in a wheel) or the handle (of a lever). This is usually about 1cm, or the thickness of the tip of an index finger.

More than this seems a bit extreme, although you can't go any further than that without having other instruments both of the same model and different models to compare to.

Perhaps that is the way it is designed.

On the instruments I have available the deadzone is less than 10º (total arc) wide.

There may be an issue if you're trying to accomplish smooth bipolar bends, which isn't what the bender is designed to do. It is designed for distinct uni-polar bends.

If you want bipolar bends you might consider a ribbon instead. With a ribbon it is possible that the position you initially touch becomes the zero point. Alternatively some allow you to set the zero point with a switch or pedal.

Thanks for that...makes perfect sense to me. I would love a ton of different controllers all set up to be easily accessed with the left hand. I like ribbons, but horizontal (in line with the keyboard) for me thank you.

[Gonga]

Those keytars though, I think they're different type of beasts altogether compared to regular keyboards. The ergonomics are bound to be different and so should the component design be.

The ergonomics, your playing technique, are very different. The keyboard is moving around and it's vertical. On the one I built, the left hand is controlling the position of the unit as well.

And true that the Synthesizers.com stuff are CV only (except the keyboards, which are MIDI) and would need some sort of converter box to be used with MIDI gear.

Yeah, that's kind of weird. Apparently they're catering to an analog modular market.

[tapper mike]

Love this discussion.

Coming from a guitar background... I've always hated pitch and modulation wheels in general. Developing proper technique for guitar vibrato and then having something on a wheel or joystick that applied rate by how far you moved it... Well plenty of fine musicians may have developed a knack for it but I never did. I'd always want to wiggle to make the vibrato happen. I also always wanted that slight pitch and volume modulation which occurs when you handle things.. err umm organically.

Long ago starr labs had a yahoo group. employees and even Harvey Starr would participate. I'd bounce ideas off of them that never came to fruition. My two favorite were..touch strips as faders and an XY pad that was routed out for dead zones.

With the XY you could use it like a joystick without the inherent issues that most joysticks have. You could also have hold/reset button. When hold was engaged it would operate much like a kaos pad controls and when reset was engaged it would return to 0,0 as the center position.

With the touchpad as fader you could easily jump to the desired level by touching the spot or you could fade in/out to a desired parameter level.

Starr labs really knows how to set up the most possible options for various parameters. You can set the start and end levels for anything you want to control.

I recently got a Linnstrument. It's a lot of fun. It was a store demo. The first thing I did was look for some strings to test it on. Wow, sounds great,,, no sounds out of tune. The bend x/y controls were being used up when I hit chords as I wasn't completely centering my fingers inside the cell(keypad) and then the pressure on the linnstrument was (still is) set to 74 which is cutoff. The cutoff was completely out of control I know I was the one out of control playing with the after pressure. It took me awhile (I'm still not there yet) to adapt to the 5 way control under each tile (cell, keypad whatever)

With all that control under my fingers you'd think I'd be satisfied. I'm considering a softstep

[Bhan]

Typically the pitch bend is just a resistor ( potentiometer ) . You might be able to find different value taper in a similar form factor.