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dellboy
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409 posts since 28 Mar, 2007

Postby dellboy; Mon Mar 12, 2018 8:24 am Re: E-Mu Morpheus vs. Roland JV-2080

Rameses wrote:I rather would assume that you don't have any experience with Rack Units, because I have. Please stay at least reasonable with your presentation, because one thing being better than another one doesn't have anything to do with magic.


So how many rack units do you own ?

I guess as many as you can get under the bridge you live under.

Perhaps its the natural reverb under the bridge that makes your hardware digital modules sound better ?

Try not to get them wet, electricity and water are not good together. :lol:
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whyterabbyt
Beware the Quoth
 
25714 posts since 3 Sep, 2001, from R'lyeh Oceanic Amusement Park and Funfair

Postby whyterabbyt; Mon Mar 12, 2018 8:26 am Re: E-Mu Morpheus vs. Roland JV-2080

dellboy wrote:
Rameses wrote:I rather would assume that you don't have any experience with Rack Units, because I have. Please stay at least reasonable with your presentation, because one thing being better than another one doesn't have anything to do with magic.


So how many rack units do you own ?


Not many, I'd guess from his OP.

by Rameses; 10 Mar 2018 13:05 wrote:E-Mu Morpheus vs. Roland JV-2080
I am considering to eventually get my first piece of hardware gear soon
"The bearer of this signature is a genuine and authorised pope."
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planetearth
KVRian
 
1284 posts since 10 Jul, 2006, from Tampa

Postby planetearth; Mon Mar 12, 2018 9:25 am Re: E-Mu Morpheus vs. Roland JV-2080

tapper mike wrote:Considering all command stations and proteus family modules have z plane filtering.


Agreeing with Evil Dragon.....
I have / had an XL7 command station with the P2500 composer rom. Yep sounded much better than the DSF aftermarket libraries if nothing else than for the DAC. Mine sporked after an incident with coffee. I keep it around for the day when I can afford to replace it with an equivalent module / command station.

Just out of curiosity, for which ROMpler did you buy the DSF libraries? Was it Kontakt, Dimension, or something else, or was it for the Proteus VST?

Steve
Listen to some of my stuff here: https://soundcloud.com/shadowsoflife.
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Gamma-UT
KVRAF
 
4056 posts since 8 Jun, 2009, from UK

Postby Gamma-UT; Mon Mar 12, 2018 9:52 am Re: E-Mu Morpheus vs. Roland JV-2080

EvilDragon wrote:Or extra colored, depending on the age of the unit. DACs weren't always perfect in the 90s, and much less so before that.


From the mid-80s onward, DACs used in professional gear were certainly not bad and in no way worse than those in consumer CD players, which were considered to be pretty transparent once sigma-deltas got going. And Sigma-deltas were common from the early 90s with very low non-linearity if you bought a Crystal or something like that. You might get some op amp interaction but I think it's more likely to be companding in the samples and other treatments (such as filters/EQ in the analogue stage to recover some high and low frequencies from heavily companded samples) to make playable instruments fit into a couple of MB of ROM that affects the sound more.
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EvilDragon
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16012 posts since 6 Jan, 2009, from Croatia

Postby EvilDragon; Mon Mar 12, 2018 10:28 am Re: E-Mu Morpheus vs. Roland JV-2080

Not necessarily always the case. Compare for example Korg X3 and X5(D). X5(D) is newer, they have pretty much the same ROM (save for extra 2 MB of samples on X5D, X5 has IDENTICAL ROM to X3), exactly the same sound generation engine and FX, yet X3 sounds better, fuller, etc.
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Gamma-UT
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4056 posts since 8 Jun, 2009, from UK

Postby Gamma-UT; Mon Mar 12, 2018 11:17 am Re: E-Mu Morpheus vs. Roland JV-2080

EvilDragon wrote:Not necessarily always the case. Compare for example Korg X3 and X5(D). X5(D) is newer, they have pretty much the same ROM (save for extra 2 MB of samples on X5D, X5 has IDENTICAL ROM to X3), exactly the same sound generation engine and FX, yet X3 sounds better, fuller, etc.


That's not inconsistent with some tweaking in the analogue stage to compensate for the compression/companding process Korg might have made to a later design - such as a stronger smiley-face EQ. Or with perhaps a more powerful amp stage so it works out a bit louder than the predecessor.
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EvilDragon
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16012 posts since 6 Jan, 2009, from Croatia

Postby EvilDragon; Mon Mar 12, 2018 11:44 am Re: E-Mu Morpheus vs. Roland JV-2080

Nope, as mentioned X3 and X5 are exactly the same ROM, exactly the same engine, exactly the same FX. Just different package (X5 is smaller and has less patch memory). Loudness-wise both are much the same. DACs are not the same, that's all. Also companding is very much a Roland thing, Korg just used compression, well at least to my knowledge.
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Gamma-UT
KVRAF
 
4056 posts since 8 Jun, 2009, from UK

Postby Gamma-UT; Mon Mar 12, 2018 12:24 pm Re: E-Mu Morpheus vs. Roland JV-2080

The service manuals for the X3, X5 and the X5D all state the DAC is a Burr Brown (now TI) PCM69AU - an 18bit DAC that's a bit better than the 16bit PCM56 that was in the M1.
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EvilDragon
KVRAF
 
16012 posts since 6 Jan, 2009, from Croatia

Postby EvilDragon; Mon Mar 12, 2018 12:42 pm Re: E-Mu Morpheus vs. Roland JV-2080

Well, they definitely sound different side by side. When I did this test some time back, I had them set up like that and volume matched and everything. Same patches, same parameter values, different sound. So it might not be DACs directly, but something else in the output section. It's not EQ, though, that much is apparent. Could also be component tolerances on circuitry around DACs, or something...
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Gamma-UT
KVRAF
 
4056 posts since 8 Jun, 2009, from UK

Postby Gamma-UT; Mon Mar 12, 2018 12:48 pm Re: E-Mu Morpheus vs. Roland JV-2080

EvilDragon wrote:Well, they definitely sound different side by side. When I did this test some time back, I had them set up like that and volume matched and everything. Same patches, same parameter values, different sound. So it might not be DACs directly, but something else in the output section. It's not EQ, though, that much is apparent.


I'm not disputing that they sound different. I'm saying it's highly possible that Korg (along with other vendors) made successive tweaks to their sample base and may well have compensated for artefacts they introduced by making compensatory changes in the analogue output stage – which would be effectively a static EQ or at the very least a change to the cutoff profile of the low-pass anti-imaging filter. And that the DAC is last place you are going to hear much of a change, which seems to be confirmed by the use of the same part across several generations that sound different.

Also, component tolerances: people just don't design this gear that badly, at least not by that point in time. If they did, individual units within the same family would sound different.
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EvilDragon
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16012 posts since 6 Jan, 2009, from Croatia

Postby EvilDragon; Mon Mar 12, 2018 12:53 pm Re: E-Mu Morpheus vs. Roland JV-2080

Samples themselves, when played raw, do sound the same between the two (and those 6 MB of ROM are identical in all AI2 synths except 01/W which has things at different SR and not as heavily compressed). Even the loop point bug for a particular Choir sample carried over through all AI2 synths, so no, they didn't modify their base sampleset in any way... :) It's when you start playing more voices the differences start becoming more apparent.

Gamma-UT wrote:Also, component tolerances: people just don't design this gear that badly, at least not by that point in time. If they did, individual units within the same family would sound different.


Well, that's a good point.
himalaya
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4576 posts since 23 Mar, 2006, from pendeLondonmonium

Postby himalaya; Mon Mar 12, 2018 1:32 pm Re: E-Mu Morpheus vs. Roland JV-2080

It's all explained in the names.

Basically, the X5 was five times different to the X3, which was three times different to M1.
The M1 tried to pull a fast one on the D50, which itself was trying to muscle in on the DX7.
The K2000 had them all huddled into a corner!
Spare a thought for the VFX though....It just Fizmo'ed out. Just like that.
http://www.electric-himalaya.com
VSTi and hardware synth sound design
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EvilDragon
KVRAF
 
16012 posts since 6 Jan, 2009, from Croatia

Postby EvilDragon; Mon Mar 12, 2018 1:39 pm Re: E-Mu Morpheus vs. Roland JV-2080

Haha. :D
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Rameses
KVRist
 
116 posts since 9 Mar, 2018, from Frankfurt am Main, Germany

Postby Rameses; Mon Mar 12, 2018 2:51 pm Re: E-Mu Morpheus vs. Roland JV-2080

dellboy wrote:
Rameses wrote:I rather would assume that you don't have any experience with Rack Units, because I have. Please stay at least reasonable with your presentation, because one thing being better than another one doesn't have anything to do with magic.


So how many rack units do you own ?

I guess as many as you can get under the bridge you live under.

Perhaps its the natural reverb under the bridge that makes your hardware digital modules sound better ?

Try not to get them wet, electricity and water are not good together. :lol:


No trolling or ad hominem, thank you. This is a serious discussion.
For DISCOGRAPHY, see К Ɱ Ԏ Ꮇ Ꮩ Ꭶ Ꭵ Ꮳ
mike_the_ranger
KVRist
 
60 posts since 16 Feb, 2017

Postby mike_the_ranger; Mon Mar 12, 2018 2:52 pm Re: E-Mu Morpheus vs. Roland JV-2080

Rameses wrote:This is a serious discussion.

no
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