Who uses Cantabile live (and no synth hardware)

[andym0908]

Hi all

I'm part of a Genesis tribute band (new to the scene - still in rehearsals), and I'm in a bit of a fix when it comes to equipment.

I used Cantabile last year for a bit, but had issues with stuck notes, and some weird subsession behaviour (ie. moving from one subsession to the next sometimes copied OVER the next subsession - didn't happen often though).

I therefore got put off using laptop and software, and went down the hardware route.

So - I got myself an 8u rack, and filled with various modules (JV1010, XV5080, 2 Wavestation SRs and a MIDITEMP Multistation to control it all with). All in all, a very expensive rack...

Now, I've got more weight to cart around, which is a big issue as I use 3 keyboards as well (Roland A90/Korg Triton/Korg Wavestation). Add to this, the Mulistation isn't totally intuitive and creating setups/configurations can easily get confusing and often I've had to start again.

Now, I LOVE the way that Cantabile makes creating setups easy - the whole routing and keyboard splits, midi assignments is fantastic.

So to get to the point - what should I do?

If I'm honest, I'm not happy with the rack, and I'm worried that the laptop/software will let me down with hanging notes etc...

Anyone got any suggestions... can anyone convince me that laptop/software is the way to go and that it IS stable? What kind of laptop do I need to get (at the moment have a Dell Inspiron 1720 3gb RAM, 320GB HD, dual core).

Any help/direction is greatly appreciated.

Cheers
Andy

[MaxSynths]

can anyone convince me that laptop/software is the way to go and that it IS stable?

Stick with hardware; learn to program your synths to get the sounds you are looking for and you'll be 100% satisfied. You can achieve all the sounds you need for a Genesis tribute band with your current setup (but you are not limited to this kind of music, those synths are really awesome machines if programmed properly).

I think no one - unless you are doing electronic music, dj stuff, etc. - would choose software for this kind of music, there are no real advantages: you need something that work fast and without problems; soft synths, specially if stacked together, can be your worst nightmare in a live situation while performing rock music. You need to play without thinking at things like latency, CPU load and so on (imagine that wonderful cracking sound while performing an organ solo ). No way. Don't listen to those which says "Herby Hancock performed live using only bla bla bla"; almost all of those statements are related only with advertisement/marketing. I used to play on a metal band once and I know that it's impossible to stress a softsynth only setup. You have to send a lot of program changes, controllers, etc.

The only softsynth I would use is a light sampler for FX/prerecorded intros (if needed), and so on.



Max

EDIT: don't know if I understood right... You are using the Multistation istead of Cantabile with your hardware setup? If so, why don't you use Cantabile to edit your hardware configuration? I think it will work great!

[TiUser]

I have mixed feelings here too.

I am no professional musician but I am very picky when it comes to live properties and have to say I would not really trust a laptop solution in a stage situation.

Live use has specific needs that are hard to accomplish with PC based VST instruments. CPU overload is not the final point, it is the lack of resource management we face in windows based solutions. Usually you also will have difficulties to create glitch free transitions. Even subsessions have to be programmed in proper sequences and using "double buffered" rack structures to come close. Even if it works it is still a lot of effort to work out.

Dynamically switching sample based sounds on a PC is a nightmare. Preloading sample libs is limited and partly removes the benefits uge sample libs may offer.

Instruments like Korg's Kronos which address these live performance issues are just starting to show up.

I don't think one get's rid of HW soon considering specific life needs.

Recording is another story and that's what VST's were initially developed for.

[andym0908]

Hey guys, thanks for your replies. Guidance is what I was after, and was indeed what I got.

So... I'll stick with my hardware for now. The sounds *are* awesome and reliability is what I get with a rack of synth modules!

MaxSynths - you are right, I am using the Multistation to configure my set up. After wanting one for a long time, I finally got one off eBay, and it seemed ideal. But after some complex set ups (multiple keyboard splits over 3 keyboards etc...), it can get frustratingly complex. Then I did ponder whether Cantabile could simply be my routing/configuration solution, as I've used it before and loved the flexibility.

What kind of interface would I need? Some 8x8 with USB device?

Or... should I just be patient with my Multistation?

Cheers
Andy

[MaxSynths]

Yes you have two options:

1. Be patient, learn your Multistation: it can do everything you need for sure, it's just a matter of workflow.

2. Use a multi out MIDI interface and control all your setup with Cantabile. This is a good solution if you want to avoid to scratch your head with tiny displays and a few push buttons.

As said before I would use a soft sampler to manage some stuff, so I pick option 2

Having a GUI interface like Cantabile could be useful also to quickly edit your setup while on stage if needed (almost impossible to do with the multistation).

Max

[andym0908]

Hmmm... well the Multistation has a cool touch-screen remote which makes things easier - but still the way it works is a bit opaque sometimes. Saying that, the Multistation has the ability to play back audio files from its hard disk, which is a great benefit.

So I'll stick with the Multistation for now - I just WISH it had the same flexibility as Cantabile!

[aqualatus]

The question you asked is the one I had to answer two years ago when I started putting my gear together.

I chose the PC/VST solution for live performances because of the price. I realized all the restrictions, but this was the only way for me, since I planned to play some progressive rock, as well as some electronic music.

Knowing the risks I decided to prepare myself for the challenge. First of all, my PC is not a laptop. I'll try to switch to a laptop in a couple of months, but I'm not sure if it's gonna work.

I use a very stripped-down version of Win XP (made by myself using nLite, which I recommend). My system loads extremely fast and uses minimal amount of RAM. You can get a lot of information from www.xpfree.org. I never had a single problem with my configurations' stability. The only problems I encounter are rare shutdowns or bugs of Cantabile. What I do is a thorough testing of every session and every change made in sessions, by simply playing on rehearsals and repairing a session when something goes wrong.

I'm not a professional musician and my sessions are not very complicated - which means that the most complicated one is with 5-6 subsessions, 16 VSTs, up to 5 zones on a keyboard, about max 6 VSTs producing sound at a time, and 4-5 sample tracks triggered during the song. Still, this IS something to me, and I would have to pay much more for a hardware solution that would do the job for me. Though, if you could afford what you already have - this argument may not be a deal-maker ;]

The only problem with my solution is switching between the subsessions. It takes about half a second, and if you hurry too much, you can get a crack or glitch. I never found this crucial, though. With enough of RAM (4-8 GB) your samples will always by ready after the session is loaded. I use one session per song, so between the songs there's always 2-5 seconds to load the next session.

The thought of going to a jam session with just a 14'' laptop and a light 61-note midi keyboard, and playing all kind of sounds with such a small setup is something that gives me strength for fighting my computer ;]

Hope this helps a bit.

[pj geerlings]

This seems like a link worth fixing

... www.xpfree.org ...

Some interesting information I think

peace y'all
pj

[andym0908]

Currently we're looking for rehearsal space with storage. The idea that I can turn up to a rehearsal without dragging my heavy equipment into/out of the car, up/down stairs - is a dream idea!!

So therefore, whilst I love the idea of just taking the laptop along to a rehearsal as the sole sound source - I'm seriously concerned about the many things that could go wrong with it.

Perhaps it's because Cantabile is just so well thought out and executed, it makes me want to have the best of both worlds - hardware reliability and Cantabile configurability (is there such a word!?!).

Yes, I can use my rack of hardware and Cantabile to route it all - but that's just another item to haul along to rehearsals... unless we find storage!!

To be continued...

[aqualatus]

pj geerlings, thanks for fixing my link!

andym0908,
In my opinion it all depends on the time you have at your disposal.
You already have a laptop and the Internet Once you download some free VST's and get access to some more resource-demanding commercial ones - you're ready to test the new way.

I don't know how familiar you are with computers. Maybe you'll need some help, but I really recommend trying.

Once you prepare a lightweight, music-oriented Windows on your laptop, you can start switching to a PC/VST system treating it as another sound module. If it doesn't meet your expectations - leave it, but you will surely learn a lot.

I don't know how much you expect of a complete sound system within a laptop. If you are like Jordan Rudess, you'd probably kill it with 16 layers of sample-based/synthesized sounds playing simultaneously. You would also complain that you cannot switch smoothly from one sub-session to another, and you have to wait a short while. But this is an extreme case.

Try to describe your on-stage setups and amount of changes that you do in one song.

A serious problem is that I don't know how it works on a laptop. I use an ordinary PC, which is always much better for this purpose (you can look for topics on KVR forum about buying a new laptop - there are many problems with these machines, though these problem are usually related to multi-track recording, which is a different task, than playing live).

[ineedauniquename]

I think in the past year computer hardware has crossed the threshold where VST instruments could perform well in a live situation.

The problem I have found is that the relatively recent advance to 64 bit operating systems has added some confusion and instability.

I am hoping to build a live VST based rig around a windows7, Native instruments Komplete7 and Reaktor. The problem that I have encountered is finding suitable sofwtware for managing the live instrumentation - for the PC the only one I like is Cantabile (and it has its faults but heck its flexible enought). Cantabile 32 bit is incompatible with my Zoom R16 so I started using Cantabile 64 bit (with Komplete Elements and Reaktor) - but Reaktor is only 32 bit so then you are into bridging land (JBridge), however after upgrading to Komplete7 I find Cantabile 64 bit extrordinarily unstable - so its back to the 32 bit version and another load of dosh for a Focuswrite USB interface (which does work Cantabile 32).

Also to get the samples loading in an acceptable time I will fit an SSD (which will be sensible for a machine that is going to get lugged around gigs and put near large magnetic speakers).

The most important point from a live reliability point of view though is control and discipline - once you've configured you computer, installed all the VSTs you need and it works nicely you simply have to leave it well alone and change nothing, no updates, no super new awsome VST effect - ok it will get out of date but at least it will be stable.

[MaxSynths]

I think in the past year computer hardware has crossed the threshold where VST instruments could perform well in a live situation.

Let's see...

*The problem that I have encountered is finding suitable sofwtware for managing the live instrumentation

*Cantabile 32 bit is incompatible with my Zoom R16 so I started using Cantabile 64 bit

*but Reaktor is only 32 bit

*I find Cantabile 64 bit extrordinarily unstable

*back to the 32 bit version and another load of dosh for a Focuswrite USB interface (which does work Cantabile 32).

*Also to get the samples loading in an acceptable time I will fit an SSD (which will be sensible for a machine that is going to get lugged around gigs and put near large magnetic speakers).

Well not so well, after all!

once you've configured you computer, installed all the VSTs you need and it works nicely you simply have to leave it well alone and change nothing

This is the problem. Few space for live tweaking = not a full live experience. While on stage you have to be creative and you need a lot of room for improvisation. I don't want to care if my PC setup is a sissy on the borderline, this is inacceptable from my point of view. Also to configure a system like this means that as soon as you want to add a new instrument/sound or whatever if something go wrong you are in serious troubles

Guitar player says: "can you add something here?"
Keyboard player options:

1. "Yes... oh sorry... something went wrong, I have to restart my PC, wait a moment please..."
2. "No, sorry: too risky! My configuration could hang..."

Saaad!

I think for other kind of musical genres it's different, for example for "pure" electronic stuff where you can plan everything in advance. But if you are on stage with other musicians (guitar players, drummers, etc.) you can't risky too much. You need something which is ready to play in a snap.

[ineedauniquename]

Well not so well, after all!

Quite.... its taking more trouble than I thought - still think its acheivable but it does feel like I am making my own violin as it were :-/

once you've configured you computer, installed all the VSTs you need and it works nicely you simply have to leave it well alone and change nothing

This is the problem. Few space for live tweaking = not a full live experience.

.... as you want to add a new instrument/sound or whatever if something go wrong you are in serious troubles

Well with Komplete7 I will easily be able to add and tweak new sounds (ten thousand instruments for zorks sake - needless to say I've cut that down to a manageable 276 and no doubt I'll prune that out sometime.

While on stage you have to be creative and you need a lot of room for improvisation.

Its all in the notes

Guitar player says: "can you add something here?"
Keyboard player options:

1. "Yes... oh sorry... something went wrong, I have to restart my PC, wait a moment please..."

Hence the SSD. Being quickly creative with hardware can still be tricksy. My Nord Stage easy the Korg Triton - well frankly its a bit of a mare to programme in a hurry. For that matter my Nord modular quite often crashes in a gig.

2. "No, sorry: too risky! My configuration could hang..."

yeah not quite what I'm talking about - I mean don't add new types of VST instruments. The hardware analogy is a bit like ...

Guitar player says : "can you add something here?"
Keboard player options

1. Yes ... press press press press butons on the Triton
2. Sure - I'll just pop out and buy an MS20 (the equivalent of installing a new VST


I agree though its risky but the fact is my job keeps me on the road and in the air so if I'm going to keep up the music its a laptop with 4 octave keyboard - if thats stable enough over the next few months then I'll use it live but until then yes I'm sticking to hardware for the weekend gigs.

[aqualatus]

It's really cool that we can exchange our experience here.
This discussion should have taken place a long time ago on this forum

About the 64 bit systems: is there really a need to switch to 64 bit? From the point of view of a live player, I guess the only thing you gain is more RAM available, but do we really need more than 3,5GB? I don't, so there's no problem in my case. I never thought of building my system on 64 bit architecture.

About programming your keyboard on a rehearsal: this is the least fun thing of being a keyboardist. I never had an opportunity to play around with a Korg Triton, Korg Oasys, or Roland Phantom, but I doubt their interface is more friendly, than a Cantabile-based system. As a keyboardist you usually have to little time to program everything while jamming.. There's not much you can do about it.

I absolutely agree with ineedauniquename. The discipline he was talking about does not mean that you have to stick to a few boring sounds. It means that you have to make up your mind and choose what you REALLY need from thousands and millions of opportunities. It's something, a guitarist or a drummer can't even imagine. Once you choose your set of VST's you should stop using new VST's live, but not stop using them at all! You can test them, try them out, though you should not trust them unless you know they work stable with Cantabile.

The best way is simply to test your sessions as many times, as you can. If my session crashed a single time during a rehearsal, I'd never use it live.

The discipline is also about making backups, which I cannot stress enough. Once you have a system that works and satisfies you - make an image of it. I restore my system a few times A MONTH (it takes 15 minutes), to ensure that my system is fresh, and the stupid Windows didn't manage to do anything stupid yet.

[Throbert]

When it comes to tweaking live on a workstation, or any programmable keyboard, unless I have preprogrammed available controls or a separate controller I shouldn't be
hitting the edit button.

I have a modified XP 64 sp2 in two rack rigs and they are plenty fast especially the one with the SSD. I get great performance with all the VSTs that I have used so far and the 8 gigs helps out quite a bit for samples.I have 7 on my laptop but don't know it well enough to be using it in my racks. It is slow as hell and has way to much $%^ in it.
If I knew what I was doing I would bend it over rt7lite and pull all the crap out of it, but that's in the future. Waiting for Podium to go 64