Passion Flute subtleties with an EWI4000s controller

[slavedave]

Greg, thanks for a wonderful sounding library.
I am trying to set my EWI up to play it and am running into difficulties obtaining the same level of control and sensitivity that I have with some of my other soft synths when used with the EWI ( eg GPO4, WIVI, Samplemodelling instruments). I probably won't describe my difficulties in the correct terms but at the moment the response to breath pressure feels "jerky" rather than smooth across the range of samples from quiet to very loud. It is easy for me to hit the overblown notes in several of the presets without blowing too hard and yet, when I play a lot more softly, I feel like I am losing some of the dynamics of the patches and always "holding back" if that makes sense. I am sure it is just a question of scaling the response to my liking but, after loading the script that was posted on the forum recently, I am still flummoxed as to how to best modify it for my specific needs. Just to let you know that I midi-learned the left most slider (velocity?)to CC2 breath control as suggested by others.
Any pointers from the members here would be much appreciated. Of course, if you need better information to help please let me know and I will try to provide it for you.
Many thanks in advance for any help you can give me.

[Gregjazz]

Does the response feel jerky due to having too much dynamic variance? Or is it because the overblown dynamic comes in too easily, making you have to hold back to avoid playing those unintentionally?

Here's a quick explanation of the two dynamics controls:

- Expression: This controls the volume of the notes, all the way down to silence. While it also affects where the crossfade in the dynamics is at, look at this control as the coarse volume/dynamic, while the next control is more for fine-tuning.

- Dynamics: This ONLY controls the crossfade between the dynamic layers--so the volume range won't be as great as the expression control.

You can actually automate both of these controls to the same CC number. Then, in Kontakt's automation settings (on Kontakt's left side bar, where the browser is), you can limit the range that the CC # affects the sliders.

[slavedave]

Thanks Greg,
It is quite hard to articulate what I mean, unfortunately. On Wivi (and I am only using this for comparision knowing it is a different technology) there is a smooth crescendo from the slightest breath input all the way up to maximum, and then back down again. Sensitivity & dynamics seem proportional to breath input on the EWI, whereas Passion Flute "feels" like it has less resolution (the only way I can describe it) and "jumps" between velocities / samples. On one patch I have to blow very gently to get the lowest velocity / sample level but an increase in breath pressure doesn't give me a corresponding increase in dynamics akin to Wivi. Then, when I try to increase the breath to get to the next threshold of sample I usually over input ultimately causing overblowing. It seems that I am compressing the range between pp and ff into a small band and moving through the mid ranges too quickly.
It may be that I have to reduce the sensitivity of the EWI itself - something that I had already been considering anyway, but after playing for a while again last night I still didn't find the interaction with the VST as "natural" as any others I have used so far (eg GPO, Kontakt's own libraries, Sampletank, Miroslav, AAS string studio etc).
I know I will crack this one eventually and be very satisfied with the wonderful library that you have created though. I will have a look at the two controls you mentioned when I next get a spell on it. Can you scale them independently using the controls in Kontakt? And if yes, is there a ration between the two that you could recommend as a starting point?
If Tony Ostinato is listening in - how did you set up your WX5 to get the control that we hear on your soundcloud link?

Thanks again.

[slavedave]

Hi Greg,
I had some time to play with the instrument again last week and had a little more joy with getting the dynamics more manageable without resorting to the script elsewhere on the forum. Still need to tweak it but will get around to that in the future.
I noticed a second phenomenon that I am experiencing with my EWi that I would value your input on. When I do legato runs in either direction at any speed the transitions between notes are wonderful. However, if I try to do non-legato runs I notice that as I speed them up I start to hear duplicate notes on different fingerings the faster I get (and I am not that fast, trust me!) eg if I play a c major scale,the transition from D to E, when played progressively faster generates two D's when playing up the scale. It doesn't seem to happen on particular note transitions - it can happen between any two adjacent notes (I haven't tried it on arpeggios yet). I suspected my technique the first few times I experienced it but I can't replicate it on any other vsti I own. I thought it may be a problem with me tongueing the notes in advance of a note change but I think this is not the case any more. Is there a setting to tweak to allow faster note id or am I doing something wrong?
Look forward to your reply.

[Gregjazz]

Hmmm, maybe it's a release sample thing? Is there any chance you could email me an MP3 example so I can hear what's going on?

[Tony Ostinato]

wow sorry not to see this sooner, ive been distracted, one of the distractions was lap steel which my fellow band members love.

tho i love the passion flute theyre a little harder on it, i probably should get that non intonation emulating script.

and its the same case as above that theyre probably also noticing, single fast tonguing seems to trigger a long release that overlaps on the next attack

i notice that you cant play an isolated staccato note with a tight cutoff release but when you legato slur 2 notes you CAN get a tight cutoff release on the second note. if there was a way to make that release you get on the second slurred note a standard release on all single tongued notes that would help a lot.

when tonguing a note you can tongue both the attack and tongue again to shut off the air fast and clean, and when you tongue many notes fast its the same effect, a hard cutoff as if the release time is set to 0.

anyways on my setup im limiting expression range to a nice narrow usable window but mainly im playing stuff ive already checked to know works well, theres a lot of things im not doing so much of cause i know its not as smooth, like mixed articulation bebop lines and fast double and triple tonguing stuff mainly because the releases are so mixed.

[slavedave]

Tony,
Thanks for your input on this. I have been away for a while and haven't been able to get around to recording something for Greg. Your description of what is happening is much more clear than mine (you speak the same language as a synth programmer I guess).
Greg, is this more helpful in identifying a cause? Both Tony and I are using wind controllers - could it be something specific that midi information from a W/C adds to the messages that a keyboard controller doesn't?
Thanks again.

[Gregjazz]

Yeah, it definitely makes sense and is helpful! It might be worth creating an alternate patch that's geared for wind controllers--at least something that gets the playability in the ballpark, so it would only take minimal tweaking to get it to work. If either of you can send me some MIDI data to work from, it would be really helpful!

[slavedave]

Greg, thanks for the reply. To send you midi data, do I need to record the passage into my Daw (sonar 8.5) and then export that to a certain midi format file (eg midi 0)? I have never done something like this before. Look forward to your advice.

[Gregjazz]

Yeah--just record it in Sonar (using a sound that feels comfortable for you to use) and then export it as a MIDI file (either type 0 or 1 is fine).

[Tony Ostinato]

aha, just saw this.

gotta mow my lawn, so ill get to making recordings tonight.

thanks for all this, im in totality of agreement that the sound is awesome and over and over on recordings it really sounds like they bucked up for a flute player.

[Tony Ostinato]

ok, i emailed matching midi file and an mp3 of yamaha vl70m which kinda sucks but its the best i have for articulation and its always hooked up because that powers the wx5 windsynth.

much more info in your email.


thanks!!!


oh yeah, since i had it all opened up i noted my settings

i have breath control mapped to expression at 40% to 100% and dynamics from 0% to 79%

im running a vst midi plugin, JS midi_velocity control, to add 128 to velocity so its maxed all the time , every note, so that dynamics and expression do everything. turning that off doesnt seem to help with the articulation stuff.

[Gregjazz]

Cool, I'll take a look/listen as soon as I can!

[Ben H]

I was all set to buy this to use with my wx5, since it's on sale atm.
Glad I noticed this thread first though.

I guess I will just have to wait for the next sale now.
Hopefully it will be fixed by then.

[Tony Ostinato]

oh, i wouldnt say these nitpicks are worth waiting on, as it is today passion is still the best flute for windsynth use.