3:16
It's a kind of proggy thing with Caravan, Camel, Gentle Giant, Paley's Watch overtones. The theme is one of debating whether to hold fast to your principles or sell out for fame and glory... All with steam-train and greek mythological imagery thrown in for good measure..
I used:
a few sfz's with clean guitars, PapelMedia Nylon Guitar, and Fitch MedCello
mda epiano
4Front GSyn Bass module
Loopazoid with a custom kit
Synth1
EVM Flute
various Classic, mda and tobybear Plugins
My voice (sorry about that..)
Train samples for across the web
Various sample edits in Audacity
Mastered using T-Sledge and TLS-maximiser.
All brewed in NTrack.
For webspace considerations, I had to go for a 112-bitrate, but it sounds OK for it..
It's a 5Meg download for those who worry about that sort of thing.
So there you have it!
DSP
Artistic/Moral Dilemma debated in prog....
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 8388 posts since 11 Apr, 2003 from back on the hillside again - but now with a garden!
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- KVRAF
- 7672 posts since 9 Nov, 2003 from Netherlands
Cool tune Duncan 
I love the arrangement you made here with some very good elements. I shall never forget your Island tune, as its engraved in my mind....
few things I am noticing here throughout the track:
It seems to my ears that when the drums kick in they are too sharp and too upfront. The electric guitar starting at 1.24 seems to be panned a tad too much, since the rest of the instrumentation seems more through the middle, I think panning the bass to the right might work here as that guitar needs a counter-part in the stereo-field.
That accoustic sequence starting at 3.04 is just delicious
The flute starting at 3.20 needs a bit of envelope work to make it a bit more lively somehow, the attack to my ears seems to be not right. And make it velocity responsive a bit more..... I love that change in sound around 5.22
Great funky drive in the second part
Then again, these are my ears so I could be totally off
I love the arrangement you made here with some very good elements. I shall never forget your Island tune, as its engraved in my mind....few things I am noticing here throughout the track:
It seems to my ears that when the drums kick in they are too sharp and too upfront. The electric guitar starting at 1.24 seems to be panned a tad too much, since the rest of the instrumentation seems more through the middle, I think panning the bass to the right might work here as that guitar needs a counter-part in the stereo-field.
That accoustic sequence starting at 3.04 is just delicious
The flute starting at 3.20 needs a bit of envelope work to make it a bit more lively somehow, the attack to my ears seems to be not right. And make it velocity responsive a bit more..... I love that change in sound around 5.22Great funky drive in the second part
Then again, these are my ears so I could be totally off
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- Narcissistic Messiah
- 4562 posts since 8 Apr, 2002 from https://soundcloud.com/remcoh
GIVE US A THUMB UP ICON
love it sir.
supertramp and floyd and erm how are they called again working together in one cool song
good work
best parts to me the 2:13 to 2:26 - simply love that instrumental part
and i love it when the bassguit comes in at 0:53 to 0:56 - very simple and effective
the cymbals and rhytm section in general sounds all a bit zizzzzly to me but it could be the compression.
good singing and good lyric
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 8388 posts since 11 Apr, 2003 from back on the hillside again - but now with a garden!
Thanks guys! I really appreciate your comments. The mixing has been a laugh, I have to do it through headphones, then burn a CD to get anykind of real-world sound. So I do a lot of guess work...
The lead guitar is hard panned like that due to the way that NTrack handles the SimulAnalog plugs.. They are mono, and Ntrack leaves them in the left channel if you use stereo effects (it handles it OK if it's the only effect). I might bounce it and create a mono wav, them reimport so that I can pan better. I need to review my drum strategy too! The Flute is EVM Flute, which sadly is not velocity sensitive.. I might try the PapelMedia flute sf2 instead...
ET, thx for the Supertramp and Floyd refs, two of my favourite bands! So I guess no surprise that elements of their style creeping in!
Glad you both liked the Classical guitar part.. I'm rather fond of it too.
I'll try another mix soon..
thx again
DSP
The lead guitar is hard panned like that due to the way that NTrack handles the SimulAnalog plugs.. They are mono, and Ntrack leaves them in the left channel if you use stereo effects (it handles it OK if it's the only effect). I might bounce it and create a mono wav, them reimport so that I can pan better. I need to review my drum strategy too! The Flute is EVM Flute, which sadly is not velocity sensitive.. I might try the PapelMedia flute sf2 instead...
ET, thx for the Supertramp and Floyd refs, two of my favourite bands! So I guess no surprise that elements of their style creeping in!
Glad you both liked the Classical guitar part.. I'm rather fond of it too.
I'll try another mix soon..
thx again
DSP
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- KVRist
- 37 posts since 19 Jan, 2003 from Netherlands
Hi,
Camel, Caravan (and other Canterbury), Gentle Giant are a few of my greatest heroes. Long time ago I had a band wich was heavely inspired by Camel/Caravan (Gentle Giant was a bit beyond our technical reach besides that the other bandmembers hated GG) .
I think it's great, you nailed and integrated these styles realy well and it's sounds very crisp.
But some tidbits (I hope you don't mind, this is music I know a lot about, and wich I care a lot about).
Overall it sounded it bit midified if you know what I mean. Caravan style music is very loose, jazzy. The main culprits are the bass and the guitars, with exception of the Papel Nylon wich sounds great.
I think you not a guitarplayer (wich I am first of all) so this a bit of a problem. Real guitar could make it much better.
The bass sounds very artificial. Major problem is that every note seems to have the same velocity. Maybe you also should look at some soundfonts for the bass. Sonic Implants has a great Rickenbacker soundfont.
Till 0.59, it is bit Gentle Giant-esk (more simple but it has that GG feel). I don't like the acoustic guitar sample at all. Real acoustic guitar would be the best, alternative would be a clavinet (much used by GG). I could do without the cheesy string esemble however.
From 0.59 till 1.26 you are in Caravan mode. Good. I could do without the cheesy string esemble however again.
From 1.26 till 2.14 we are getting deep in Caravan mode. I guess you are trying to do a guitar solo with your soundfonts. Don't do that. In true Canterbury fassion they would use a (I think) a Lowry organ through a fuzzbox and a wah (Five feet underground... from the Land of Grey and Pink). (Well in way Caravan did in this way guitar solos because that was not there strength).
With all the organ plugins avaiable and effects this must be feasable.
From 2.14 till 3.06, nice break but I didn't care much for the acoustic guitar sound (again). This sounded very dead. This needs a more organic background.
From 3.06 till 3.58, it's realy nice, very Camel-esk. Nice flutes and Nylon guitar. Sounds quite natural.
From 3.58 till 4.38, GG mode (Power and the Glory?), nice, bass en guitar see above.
From 4.38 till 5.08, ok, get rid of string esemble.
From 5.08 till 5.24, here should an Andy Latimer like guitar sole come in.
From 5.24 till 5.43, nice piano solo, sounded much more alive,
from 5.43 till the end, reprise of Andy Latimet solo needed.
BTW: I was very impressed by the drum programming/sounds.
Henny
Camel, Caravan (and other Canterbury), Gentle Giant are a few of my greatest heroes. Long time ago I had a band wich was heavely inspired by Camel/Caravan (Gentle Giant was a bit beyond our technical reach besides that the other bandmembers hated GG) .
I think it's great, you nailed and integrated these styles realy well and it's sounds very crisp.
But some tidbits (I hope you don't mind, this is music I know a lot about, and wich I care a lot about).
Overall it sounded it bit midified if you know what I mean. Caravan style music is very loose, jazzy. The main culprits are the bass and the guitars, with exception of the Papel Nylon wich sounds great.
I think you not a guitarplayer (wich I am first of all) so this a bit of a problem. Real guitar could make it much better.
The bass sounds very artificial. Major problem is that every note seems to have the same velocity. Maybe you also should look at some soundfonts for the bass. Sonic Implants has a great Rickenbacker soundfont.
Till 0.59, it is bit Gentle Giant-esk (more simple but it has that GG feel). I don't like the acoustic guitar sample at all. Real acoustic guitar would be the best, alternative would be a clavinet (much used by GG). I could do without the cheesy string esemble however.
From 0.59 till 1.26 you are in Caravan mode. Good. I could do without the cheesy string esemble however again.
From 1.26 till 2.14 we are getting deep in Caravan mode. I guess you are trying to do a guitar solo with your soundfonts. Don't do that. In true Canterbury fassion they would use a (I think) a Lowry organ through a fuzzbox and a wah (Five feet underground... from the Land of Grey and Pink). (Well in way Caravan did in this way guitar solos because that was not there strength).
With all the organ plugins avaiable and effects this must be feasable.
From 2.14 till 3.06, nice break but I didn't care much for the acoustic guitar sound (again). This sounded very dead. This needs a more organic background.
From 3.06 till 3.58, it's realy nice, very Camel-esk. Nice flutes and Nylon guitar. Sounds quite natural.
From 3.58 till 4.38, GG mode (Power and the Glory?), nice, bass en guitar see above.
From 4.38 till 5.08, ok, get rid of string esemble.
From 5.08 till 5.24, here should an Andy Latimer like guitar sole come in.
From 5.24 till 5.43, nice piano solo, sounded much more alive,
from 5.43 till the end, reprise of Andy Latimet solo needed.
BTW: I was very impressed by the drum programming/sounds.
Henny
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- addled muppet weed
- 105800 posts since 26 Jan, 2003 from through the looking glass
have to admit some bits did sound a little false,but to be honest i dont care its a funky tune and i enjoyed it 
my saturday is better for hearing it,thanks for sharing
my saturday is better for hearing it,thanks for sharing
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- KVRist
- 77 posts since 27 May, 2004
cool funky tune. the only problem is that your vocals are SSSSSOOOOOOOOO close to being perfect. It's just that you seem to be holding them back. your perfectly in tune man. So belt those vocals out. People will love you more for it. also the more you belt out your vocals it seems with most people the more in tune they become. so give it a try....or Say F*CK YOU falcon i like them the way they are.
www.kolemcrae.co.nr - You can't spell creativity without Kole...Wait, yes you can.
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- KVRist
- 232 posts since 21 Nov, 2003 from Australia
It's one of NTrack's more annoying limitations, that.duncanparsons wrote:The lead guitar is hard panned like that due to the way that NTrack handles the SimulAnalog plugs.. They are mono, and Ntrack leaves them in the left channel if you use stereo effects (it handles it OK if it's the only effect).
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 8388 posts since 11 Apr, 2003 from back on the hillside again - but now with a garden!
Blimey! I have never been so well received!
Linde, I am a guitar player, but drums are my first instrument! You may notice that all the chords are in the correct voicings.. but yes, there's a combination of soundfonts and VSTi's making the sounds. tbh, getting a decent sound into my laptop has been such a problem that programming the parts has been my only option.. also I'm a rhythm player more than a lead, I can't play like I program! I realise that a real rhythm would help mask a programmed solo, but I will need to do a system upgrade first..!
Yes, Nine Feet Underground is one of my favourite tunes. It's great to chill out in the bath with it on (great way to irritate other hall members on a university campus!). And again, The Power and the Glory (along with Three Friends) show GG at their best. There are definite shades of TPATG structures here, but Kerry Minnear I'm not.
Thx for the Latimer suggestion! He's one of the great underrated players IMHO. Very humble bloke, and solid melodies. Sadly I'm not him..
I have shyed away from outright copying of sounds/ styles since (i) I'm not those people (ii) they were writing at a particular time, with particular limitations; I'm writing at this particular time, with my own limitations; and (iii) I can't honestly compete!!!! I will always carry references to other work with me (don't we all?), but prefer to be abit my own man.
Thanks for taking the time to listen!
vurt, thank you. Glad your saturday was enlivened!
Falcon, whoa! I'm really NOT a singer! But thank you for the encouragement.
I am going to do a remix, but it will be just tweaking. thanks for all the comments, many taken on board and will be implemented in future projects. I will do the necessary EQ and panning, then lay this down. I like to keep milestones, really. This is one for me in a way. I wrote the lyrix almost ten years ago (3 sides of A4..) and over the years gradually honed it to what I was happy with. The melody came quite quickly, so did the form, all written on guitar. I started the arrangement May last year, and have just done bits as time has allowed. I'm happy with it, on the whole, and so much positive feedback and helpful criticism has encouraged me a great deal.
No one seems to have taken umbridge to the Christian leaning of the lyrix.. I did think twice about posting after that stand-alone synth debacle recently!
Also, if you're interested, I did do another track recently, but it's not quite as interesting!
thx again
DSP
Linde, I am a guitar player, but drums are my first instrument! You may notice that all the chords are in the correct voicings.. but yes, there's a combination of soundfonts and VSTi's making the sounds. tbh, getting a decent sound into my laptop has been such a problem that programming the parts has been my only option.. also I'm a rhythm player more than a lead, I can't play like I program! I realise that a real rhythm would help mask a programmed solo, but I will need to do a system upgrade first..!
Yes, Nine Feet Underground is one of my favourite tunes. It's great to chill out in the bath with it on (great way to irritate other hall members on a university campus!). And again, The Power and the Glory (along with Three Friends) show GG at their best. There are definite shades of TPATG structures here, but Kerry Minnear I'm not.
Thx for the Latimer suggestion! He's one of the great underrated players IMHO. Very humble bloke, and solid melodies. Sadly I'm not him..
I have shyed away from outright copying of sounds/ styles since (i) I'm not those people (ii) they were writing at a particular time, with particular limitations; I'm writing at this particular time, with my own limitations; and (iii) I can't honestly compete!!!! I will always carry references to other work with me (don't we all?), but prefer to be abit my own man.
Thanks for taking the time to listen!
vurt, thank you. Glad your saturday was enlivened!
Falcon, whoa! I'm really NOT a singer! But thank you for the encouragement.
I am going to do a remix, but it will be just tweaking. thanks for all the comments, many taken on board and will be implemented in future projects. I will do the necessary EQ and panning, then lay this down. I like to keep milestones, really. This is one for me in a way. I wrote the lyrix almost ten years ago (3 sides of A4..) and over the years gradually honed it to what I was happy with. The melody came quite quickly, so did the form, all written on guitar. I started the arrangement May last year, and have just done bits as time has allowed. I'm happy with it, on the whole, and so much positive feedback and helpful criticism has encouraged me a great deal.
No one seems to have taken umbridge to the Christian leaning of the lyrix.. I did think twice about posting after that stand-alone synth debacle recently!
Also, if you're interested, I did do another track recently, but it's not quite as interesting!
thx again
DSP
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- something special
- 8571 posts since 16 Mar, 2002 from Birmingham, Alabama
wow, this is one of the most ambitious pieces I have heard here.
very nicely done, and I didn't mind the parts being sequenced.
excellent work.
very nicely done, and I didn't mind the parts being sequenced.
excellent work.
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- KVRist
- 37 posts since 19 Jan, 2003 from Netherlands
But who is? This guy writes incredible complex, almost mathematical, music. The closest thing imho prog realy ever get into the realm of serious modern classical music. I once read 'if Bartok was living in the 70's he was playing in GG'.duncanparsons wrote: There are definite shades of TPATG structures here, but Kerry Minnear I'm not.
DSP
Many contempory progbands have tried to do a GG-esk piece but most of them (Spocks Beard for example) failed in my opinion.
The funny and great thing is you did it much simpler but nailed the sound/feeling anyhow.
Henny
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 8388 posts since 11 Apr, 2003 from back on the hillside again - but now with a garden!
That's the nicest thing anyone's ever said about my music! thx a lot.Linde wrote:The funny and great thing is you did it much simpler but nailed the sound/feeling anyhow.
And glad you liked it bluedad!
I've been playing with a remix.. The PapelMedia flute isn't as good as their other SFs.. very sinewavy.. I'll go back to my original flute sound and play with that.
thx for the encouragements,
DSP
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 8388 posts since 11 Apr, 2003 from back on the hillside again - but now with a garden!
Just for those interested, I have done a 'tidying up' remix..
The hihats took at cut at around 5kHz to round off the sharpness of entry; there's some sublte automation on the flute to make it a bit more natural; the lead guitar parts have been brought in from the cold (still panned - I like it like that, but not so extreme); and the vocals have been brought into the miz a bit better...
I elected not to change any of the actual sounds in the end, tho' I was tempted. Basically it would have a 'grass is always greener' kind of exercise, and I would keep more of my hair by leaving it all alone!
So, ta for the encouragement, and this is the final mix!
3:16
DSP
The hihats took at cut at around 5kHz to round off the sharpness of entry; there's some sublte automation on the flute to make it a bit more natural; the lead guitar parts have been brought in from the cold (still panned - I like it like that, but not so extreme); and the vocals have been brought into the miz a bit better...
I elected not to change any of the actual sounds in the end, tho' I was tempted. Basically it would have a 'grass is always greener' kind of exercise, and I would keep more of my hair by leaving it all alone!
So, ta for the encouragement, and this is the final mix!
3:16
DSP
