How realistic can a Virtual Solo Viola sound?

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ChamMusic wrote:
mediumaevum wrote:I'm not sure I understand this double-stop.
Watch the video I posted above it explains it very clearly.
mediumaevum wrote:Do you mean double bows?
No! It's simply playing two strings at the same time with one bow! Usually the two strings are STOPPED...you have fingers on them, but the technique is also used on totally open strings...see the video!
jancivil wrote:I turned it off around the time it seemed like I was hearing 3 or more *stopped notes
Note: It is actually possible to play 3 notes at once on a violin or viola...TRIPLE STOPPING, but not in soft, slow passages like this one.

Nearer the fingerboard is where triple stopping can be done by a skilled player, but it requires a lot of bow pressure on the strings and can't be done gently...many composers have written triple stopping into hectic, loud passages - Bach did it a quite a few times:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVga8H4zvyQ

Historical Note: It was actually easier on early versions of the violin as the bridge supporting the strings was slightly straighter / flatter!
At 14 sec. and the rest of the piece, 2 solo violas are playing independent melody lines (counterpoint) along with a solo cello - and later a Cello Ensemble is playing a 4th voice with pizzicato.

I only have 1 solo viola in the very beginning of the piece from 0-14 sec.

Could this be the cause of confusion making it sound like 2 strings on a single viola. It is not what I did here, I have 2 solo violas.

Like in this Phantasy Quintet from Vaughan Williams:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lf34-mLQYvs

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Well, when you title a thread the way you did, what did you expect people to think? I thought it was one viola playing. Without specifics, people are going to assume things.

A better example would have been if you just had a solo viola playing and nothing else. At least no other string instruments.

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mediumaevum wrote:At 14 sec. and the rest of the piece, 2 solo violas are playing
Yes, I know, ( vibrato was subtly different on each line), but you asked about double-stopping so I explained it! :0)

I think it was possibly a bit confusing to those who don't know this software...you did talk about testing 'SOLO VIOLA' sounds! :0)

I've listened to a lot of your music over the last few months and I think there are a few underlying messages that you need to take on board here, (this might sound slightly patronizing, but it's not mean that way at all):

1) Your music definitely has a lot of potential...some great touches at times...particularly melodically.

2) But...In some areas you are trying to sprint before you can walk. You are composing music which is in a 'classical' vein, but are not , yet, that knowledgeable about it.
a) Asking about 'double-stopping' shows what I mean.
b) So does this line: 2 solo violas are playing independent melody lines (counterpoint) It is not counterpoint / a contrapuntal texture at all. The viola lines are NOT independent in that way as one is clearly a leading melody and the other is simply supporting it by playing 'in harmony'. Your texture here is very much homophonic (melody and accompaniment). It is based around a lead melody supported by parts that mainly form block chords. Even the cello when it enters basically plays at the same time as the two violas.

Counterpoint, (in simple terms) involves two or more independently moving melodic lines that are of equal importance.

3) Don't worry too much about serious 'realism' quite yet (if ever). Focus more on the basics of composing and the general elements of music and how they work together... rhythm, melody, harmony, tempo, dynamics, texture etc

4) Harmonically all your pieces so far have been in a very similar stereo-typical 'olde worlde' style. unless my ear is letting me down, this one again uses Dm / C a lot...occasionally slips up to F and then uses C and maybe an Am to go back towards Dm etc...all sounds very sweet and lovely, but it does limit you in terms of where you can go and what you can do. Try some new harmonic ideas? Experiment and I have no doubt that you'll steadily begin to create your own sonic identity and create pieces that develop more fully.

That's probably going to come across as seriously 'know-it-all'... not meant that way, but...

At the age of 54, and having been actively involved in music of many different genres just about everyday of my life since I was 7, I do know quite a lot! :0)

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ChamMusic wrote:
mediumaevum wrote:At 14 sec. and the rest of the piece, 2 solo violas are playing
Yes, I know, ( vibrato was subtly different on each line), but you asked about double-stopping so I explained it! :0)

I think it was possibly a bit confusing to those who don't know this software...you did talk about testing 'SOLO VIOLA' sounds! :0)

I've listened to a lot of your music over the last few months and I think there are a few underlying messages that you need to take on board here, (this might sound slightly patronizing, but it's not mean that way at all):

1) Your music definitely has a lot of potential...some great touches at times...particularly melodically.

2) But...In some areas you are trying to sprint before you can walk. You are composing music which is in a 'classical' vein, but are not , yet, that knowledgeable about it.
a) Asking about 'double-stopping' shows what I mean.
b) So does this line: 2 solo violas are playing independent melody lines (counterpoint) It is not counterpoint / a contrapuntal texture at all. The viola lines are NOT independent in that way as one is clearly a leading melody and the other is simply supporting it by playing 'in harmony'. Your texture here is very much homophonic (melody and accompaniment). It is based around a lead melody supported by parts that mainly form block chords. Even the cello when it enters basically plays at the same time as the two violas.

Counterpoint, (in simple terms) involves two or more independently moving melodic lines that are of equal importance.

3) Don't worry too much about serious 'realism' quite yet (if ever). Focus more on the basics of composing and the general elements of music and how they work together... rhythm, melody, harmony, tempo, dynamics, texture etc

4) Harmonically all your pieces so far have been in a very similar stereo-typical 'olde worlde' style. unless my ear is letting me down, this one again uses Dm / C a lot...occasionally slips up to F and then uses C and maybe an Am to go back towards Dm etc...all sounds very sweet and lovely, but it does limit you in terms of where you can go and what you can do. Try some new harmonic ideas? Experiment and I have no doubt that you'll steadily begin to create your own sonic identity and create pieces that develop more fully.

That's probably going to come across as seriously 'know-it-all'... not meant that way, but...

At the age of 54, and having been actively involved in music of many different genres just about everyday of my life since I was 7, I do know quite a lot! :0)
And it shows. Excellent analysis. Nice to see some old timers around here. I just turned 60 in November and after over 40 years of making music I still feel like I hardly know anything at all.

There is always room to learn new things.

To the OP, I strongly suggest you take Cham's words to heart. They will help you greatly in the long run. As I said, you're not going to find a totally real sounding viola sound. It has yet to be created.

Maybe someday, though I doubt it.

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ChamMusic wrote:
mediumaevum wrote:At 14 sec. and the rest of the piece, 2 solo violas are playing
Yes, I know, ( vibrato was subtly different on each line), but you asked about double-stopping so I explained it! :0)

I think it was possibly a bit confusing to those who don't know this software...you did talk about testing 'SOLO VIOLA' sounds! :0)

I've listened to a lot of your music over the last few months and I think there are a few underlying messages that you need to take on board here, (this might sound slightly patronizing, but it's not mean that way at all):

1) Your music definitely has a lot of potential...some great touches at times...particularly melodically.

2) But...In some areas you are trying to sprint before you can walk. You are composing music which is in a 'classical' vein, but are not , yet, that knowledgeable about it.
a) Asking about 'double-stopping' shows what I mean.
b) So does this line: 2 solo violas are playing independent melody lines (counterpoint) It is not counterpoint / a contrapuntal texture at all. The viola lines are NOT independent in that way as one is clearly a leading melody and the other is simply supporting it by playing 'in harmony'. Your texture here is very much homophonic (melody and accompaniment). It is based around a lead melody supported by parts that mainly form block chords. Even the cello when it enters basically plays at the same time as the two violas.

Counterpoint, (in simple terms) involves two or more independently moving melodic lines that are of equal importance.

3) Don't worry too much about serious 'realism' quite yet (if ever). Focus more on the basics of composing and the general elements of music and how they work together... rhythm, melody, harmony, tempo, dynamics, texture etc

4) Harmonically all your pieces so far have been in a very similar stereo-typical 'olde worlde' style. unless my ear is letting me down, this one again uses Dm / C a lot...occasionally slips up to F and then uses C and maybe an Am to go back towards Dm etc...all sounds very sweet and lovely, but it does limit you in terms of where you can go and what you can do. Try some new harmonic ideas? Experiment and I have no doubt that you'll steadily begin to create your own sonic identity and create pieces that develop more fully.

That's probably going to come across as seriously 'know-it-all'... not meant that way, but...

At the age of 54, and having been actively involved in music of many different genres just about everyday of my life since I was 7, I do know quite a lot! :0)
2 solo violas, instead of viola ensembles. That's what I meant, and is causing confusion.

Thank you very much for your constructive criticism. No, it was not counterpoint, and I wrote a little too fast to explain what I meant by it. It is harmony, it is just a second line, a second instrument (a second viola). That was all I was trying to say.

While I do not know a lot about counterpoint, I have a basic rough idea of it, and I can achieve something similar to counterpoint - yet not real counterpoint (I haven't done it in this piece, but in some of my later compositions I have).

You are right about the harmonies, I need some variation and alternative harmonies. Problem is, I can't get my brain away from the old-world harmony. Dissonant or modern forms of harmony, especially those used in classical music tends to dissapoint me, because I expect the "old world" and then I get slightly more dissonant harmonies.

Yet, I do like Palestrina, Dufay etc. but somehow they could use alternative harmonies in a decent and even pleasing way.

My favorite passages in Vaughan William's Theme on Tallis, are the actual hymn melodies. Not the expressive and playful passages.

But I am becoming more aware that my harmonies and lack of variation is too much of the good stuff.
It may become too boring, and I will try to play a little more with the harmonies, though dissonant chords should be treated very careful.
Last edited by mediumaevum on Fri Jun 22, 2018 2:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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wagtunes wrote: And it shows. Excellent analysis. Nice to see some old timers around here. I just turned 60 in November and after over 40 years of making music I still feel like I hardly know anything at all.

There is always room to learn new things.

To the OP, I strongly suggest you take Cham's words to heart. They will help you greatly in the long run. As I said, you're not going to find a totally real sounding viola sound. It has yet to be created.

Maybe someday, though I doubt it.
This is an excellent analysis, yes and good criticism and I will use it.

Thank you very much, keep the criticism/feedback coming! I need it.

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wagtunes wrote:There is always room to learn new things.
Definitely...some much more to try out; haven't even scratched the surface yet in some ways! :0)

wagtunes wrote:Maybe someday, though I doubt it.
I genuinely hope that it NEVER happens!

Some days, I wonder why people are even trying to do it. Electronic music has many great strengths as a discrete area of music. It doesn't need to try and emulate other areas so much! :0)

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ChamMusic wrote: I genuinely hope that it NEVER happens!

Some days, I wonder why people are even trying to do it. Electronic music has many great strengths as a discrete area of music. It doesn't need to try and emulate other areas so much! :0)
Some of us do not have access to a real viola, or can't play it or whatever the reason.

And some of us don't have access to a live orchestra to play our compositions.

It's sad, but true. If I could buy own orchestra and have it play on-demand and try out different stuff, I'd do it.

But unfortunately, I can't afford it. I am at the mercy of VST's.

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ChamMusic wrote:
wagtunes wrote:There is always room to learn new things.
Definitely...some much more to try out; haven't even scratched the surface yet in some ways! :0)

wagtunes wrote:Maybe someday, though I doubt it.
I genuinely hope that it NEVER happens!

Some days, I wonder why people are even trying to do it. Electronic music has many great strengths as a discrete area of music. It doesn't need to try and emulate other areas so much! :0)
Eh, well the thing is we all can't afford to hire orchestras. So if we want to do "convincing" orchestral work it would at least be nice to have something that sounds reasonably close.

Having said that, I think we're there. I'm more than content with the way today's orchestral libraries sound, which is why I was so puzzled by the OP's "sounds terrible" remark. I don't think this stuff sounds terrible at all. But then again, all of this is just opinion anyway and everybody is going to have a different one.

But if things don't get any better than they are right now, I'll be perfectly content.

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I seem to remember there being very realistic sounding strings in Omnisphere, but I haven't heard it in a few years. I wish I still had it so I could check for you, but I threw out my copy thinking I'd never be interested again or use it again.

Sorry I can't be of more help. I think though that the answer to the question of how realistic can a virtual solo viola sound is very realistic.

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wagtunes wrote:well the thing is we all can't afford to hire orchestras. So if we want to do "convincing" orchestral work it would at least be nice to have something that sounds reasonably close.
I can't argue too strongly with that as I've been asked to write many an 'orchestral' piece by clients over the years on seriously unrealistic budgets! Without my orchestral sample libraries I wouldn't have got the work done and been paid! :0)

Maybe, though, we just shouldn't be trying to create convincing MIDI orchestras at all? We should just accept the fact that we can't afford the real thing and do something else with the technology? Should we be doing it at all, when MIDI, VST, electronic music is so very good at other things that real orchestras simply cannot ever do!

Big sample libraries create an overall 'orchestral' feel. Solo violin VSTs produce something that has a certain flavour of the real thing, but they don't really ever get that close, even now. It's like MIDI orchestration...a totally different skill set to real-life orchestration...different possibilities and different limitations.

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spendthrift2 wrote:I seem to remember there being very realistic sounding strings in Omnisphere, but I haven't heard it in a few years. I wish I still had it so I could check for you, but I threw out my copy thinking I'd never be interested again or use it again.

Sorry I can't be of more help. I think though that the answer to the question of how realistic can a virtual solo viola sound is very realistic.

I use Omnisphere 2 all the time still, awesome software for so many genres...

The ensemble string patches in there are seriously warm and lush. They can sound very 'orchestral' in a mix..very useful indeed. They sound wonderful! Like the real thing...nope!

Your second point, I would go as far as acceptably realistic if well programmed and automated; but they would never pass a close inspection by anyone who is reasonably well acquainted with the real thing.

Interestingly, many big films now use sampled libraries quite a lot. It saves on money - hire a smaller 'real' ensemble and then fill it up with high quality samples to make it sound bigger! This hybrid approach can create a huge orchestral sound that is actually very difficult to create with either just samples or just the real thing!
Last edited by ChamMusic on Fri Jun 22, 2018 3:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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mediumaevum wrote: I'm not sure I understand this double-stop. Do you mean double bows? I have not one viola (only in the beginning), but 2 violas, one cello and a cello ensemble pizzicato later.
Bach composing for solo violin using double stops.

Chaconne by J.S. Bach.......

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZHgLqmwVO0

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ChamMusic wrote:
wagtunes wrote:well the thing is we all can't afford to hire orchestras. So if we want to do "convincing" orchestral work it would at least be nice to have something that sounds reasonably close.
I can't argue too strongly with that as I've been asked to write many an 'orchestral' piece by clients over the years on seriously unrealistic budgets! Without my orchestral sample libraries I wouldn't have got the work done and been paid! :0)

Maybe, though, we just shouldn't be trying to create convincing MIDI orchestras at all? We should just accept the fact that we can't afford the real thing and do something else with the technology? Should we be doing it at all, when MIDI, VST, electronic music is so very good at other things that real orchestras simply cannot ever do!

Big sample libraries create an overall 'orchestral' feel. Solo violin VSTs produce something that has a certain flavour of the real thing, but they don't really ever get that close, even now. It's like MIDI orchestration...a totally different skill set to real-life orchestration...different possibilities and different limitations.
No arguments from me there. But I still think in spite of the limitations, doing orchestral work can be fun. I'm certainly not going to stop doing it just because my violin doesn't sound like a real violin. I take it as a challenge and I accept the challenge.

It sure beats what we had back in 1979.

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wagtunes wrote:But I still think in spite of the limitations, doing orchestral work can be fun.
Agreed!
wagtunes wrote:I'm certainly not going to stop doing it just because my violin doesn't sound like a real violin.
Exactly..don't worry about that aspect too much or you'll lose the 'fun'! :0)

wagtunes wrote:It sure beats what we had back in 1979.
Definitely! Although it takes a bucket load more processing power and hard drive space as well!

My first MIDI orchestral piece was saved on a floppy disk and took just about 250 Kb of memory when finished. My PC had just 8 Mb of RAM and a 200 Mb hard drive! :0)

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