(the product formerly known as) Epoch

[woggle]

still looking forward to this - and from an 'almost certain' buyer viewpoint, I am wanting something that is reliable and can be maintained by the developer. So I'm pleased to see Colin's thorough development process

[kylie]

Im kinda absolutely tempted to put a sticker on this reading "Not before 2015", but if there was an answer to this ping I would most probably resist.



this time.

[pinki]

Wow 2 years and 4 months seems a little excessive since we first got excited about this. Maybe it's OK to say it's not happening now? It might take the pressure off and we can all forget about it. And then we could be surprised in the future!

[colin@loomer]

It's definitely happening. I am sorry it's taken so long, but I still maintain that the rewrites, changes, and improvements were all worth holding off a release for. In terms of power and flexibility, it's an order of magnitude better than my original target.

[? ? ?]

Is this sequencer aimed at realtime music composers who prefer to write "on the fly" in a live environment with every and all parameters capable of being controlled via MIDI and/or keystroke? If so, it is something i've been craving for and yes I've tried em all practically...Hollyhock, been an Ableton user since it's inception, Numerology etc.. There's always some sort of setback with these apps. At least for what I am interested in doing.
Anyhow, if this is indeed aimed at realtime on the fly music composition, I'm looking forward to checking it out. Maybe a list (features) of what to expect with version 1?
Sorry if this has already been asked. Too lazy to read through the whole thread.

[bungle]

Is their any point giving a feature list ?
If he had done that a few months back it sounds as if it would be completely different now anyway haha, feature creep is a killer and making the decision to release becomes harder every day "Oh i could just add that"

[koalaboy]

Maybe it should move into kickstarter-like territory.

Offer the alpha for sale now, with the obvious caveats that it may change again over time, and that'll bring in some income whilst keeping those of us wanting it from going on... and on... and on... and...

After all, it worked well for Minecraft !

[colin@loomer]

Is this sequencer aimed at realtime music composers who prefer to write "on the fly" in a live environment with every and all parameters capable of being controlled via MIDI and/or keystroke? If so, it is something i've been craving for and yes I've tried em all practically.

Yes! It's not only for these types of composers, but it will fit them like a glove. I'd say: think of it as somewhere between Reaktor, albeit with a heavy emphasis on MIDI, and Ableton Live. There are various high-level step sequencing modules, all of which are very real-time tweakable due to exposed parameters - you could, for example, map a slow CV sequencer to the Loop End parameter of a Note Sequencer, and have a sequence which plays 16 notes on its first iteration, then 15, then 14, etc. Or you could ignore the sequencer modules altogether, and just build your own generators based on some obscure mathematical algorithm. Or process your live MIDI input with an auto-accompaniment patch.

You build your patches with a graphical programming language, wiring up little modules which perform specific operations. Some very simple: add, delay, counter, logic gate, switch; some much more complicated, such as the aforementioned Note Sequencer. And these can be combined into re-usable macros, giving you a library so that you don't necessarily need to start from scratch each time.

As well as the patch window, you have a dashboard view containing the UI of certain modules, such as the sequencers.

There's always some sort of setback with these apps.

I'd be interested in hearing what these setbacks are, make sure I avoid them!

[woggle]

sounds like (and I am hoping it is) a midi oriented, more user friendly, version of Usine Hollyhock

[ThomasHelzle]

As for setbacks, my very personal view:
Reaktor can do a lot of stuff in the midi realm, but the overall handling, order of execution problems and simply too nerdy thinking makes it a pain if you just want to play and try out stuff. It feels more like programming and "work". And it simply shows it's age, as amazing as it still is.

Usine can do a lot of what you explain, but has certain features/problems that make it harder to use than necessary. The old version had a kind of very flexible timeline that you were able to go through in whatever ways you wanted, but midi was totally broken for me, after some minutes of usage note ons became note offs etc. which rendered it unusable.
The new version (Hollyhock) has no VST version and no timeline, so I find it hard to use in the realm I personally am interested in, and some of the basic workflow paradigms somehow don't really click with me. It's the closest thing though and maybe one day the niggles will be ironed out.
What I love about it is, that you have access to all VST parameters directly, so modulation is a dream.

Numerology for me is too sequencer focused and mac only.

Bidule is great and fast but has no User-GUI concept (which is where Usine would shine with some more love to basics). To me it is more like a higher-level Reaktor, again not really musical feeling.
Modulation routing feels very abstract to me, far from being as intuitive and direct as Usine.

Mulab/Mux could be another close match, but I find its node paradigm totally alien. It somehow is neither here nor there between user-friendly and low level. I try it regularly, but never was able to enjoy it.

Tracktions node editor is very nice, but lacks a real modulation concept (not automation) with no direct access to VST parameters. But it's very intuitive within the realm of what it can do.

M4L - similar to Reaktor - is too low level for "play", has a weird kind of "thinking", is limited to Live and never clicked with me. I finally sold it with my Live Suite license some time ago.

So ATM Bitwig is the closest to my personal interests, but until version 2 there is no node-access and midi mangling is a bit weak still. It's modulation paradigm is fantastic though, you can have factory devices and VSTs (FX, Instruments and MIDI) in whatever order you want in one device chain and you can "feel" the modular concept behind it, even though it isn't accessible yet from the GUI.

This is where non-Epoch would come into play for me right now: filling the gap in complex midi mangling and routing while being able to send modulation and automation from Bitwig to it and possibly out again.

I worked with many node based systems in 3D-Graphics, Rendering and Compositing so I have a solid grip on the basics. The little I've seen of non-Epoch so far looks like a winner. Low level where needed and useful, scripting where nodes are just a royal pain in the behind (in reactor, some stuff could be written in 5 lines of code that needs dozens of nodes) and high-level where it makes sense (I don't want to build a sequencer from scratch 99% of the time).

Cheers,

Tom

[koalaboy]

I worked with many node based systems in 3D-Graphics, Rendering and Compositing so I have a solid grip on the basics. The little I've seen of non-Epoch so far looks like a winner. Low level where needed and useful, scripting where nodes are just a royal pain in the behind (in reactor, some stuff could be written in 5 lines of code that needs dozens of nodes) and high-level where it makes sense (I don't want to build a sequencer from scratch 99% of the time).

Absolutely. What we need is an UnrealEngine 'Blueprint' equivalent for the Audio world. It's by far one of the most intuitive systems - obviously a slight learning curve but then peppered with context-sensitive usability and a slew of videos to ease people over the tiny bump.

for example (obviously 3D graphics):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JH6zLAMFSi0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmnC6IUPGjI

[? ? ?]

Yes! It's not only for these types of composers, but it will fit them like a glove. I'd say: think of it as somewhere between Reaktor, albeit with a heavy emphasis on MIDI, and Ableton Live.

This sounds interesting. Appears like you are going the full fledged DAW route but without the audio? I have both Live and Reaktor but like Thomas, I never got to the meat and bones of Reaktor.
I prefer to focus on music making as opposed to programming which probably is going to be mandatory in the near future for electronic composers/producers if they want specific features that cater to their workflow. Renoise, Ableton, Reaper are a few of the DAWs that head this direction.

you could, for example, map a slow CV sequencer to the Loop End parameter of a Note Sequencer, and have a sequence which plays 16 notes on its first iteration, then 15, then 14, etc.

Is mapping within your program capable of being done via MIDI?

You build your patches with a graphical programming language, wiring up little modules which perform specific operations. Some very simple: add, delay, counter, logic gate, switch; some much more complicated, such as the aforementioned Note Sequencer. And these can be combined into re-usable macros, giving you a library so that you don't necessarily need to start from scratch each time.

This is excellent for those into programming so I can understand implementing it. Although.....

I'd be interested in hearing what these setbacks are, make sure I avoid them!

Ok, you asked so here goes:

1. It's nice to have programming options to custom build for those who have the time, patience and more importantly, love for it. However, "out of the box" so to speak, have as much as possible available without the need for programming.
Let's look at Ableton Live, it's "good "out of the box, but for it to be "great" (as far as realtime spontaneous music composing and live performance is concerned), you need Max for Live ($200), you need to spend time learning how to program in M4L- time which could be spent making music. This is especially important for those who actually make money with their music. Depending on what options you want, you may also have to install 3rd party apps like Clyphx to give you more session view clips options which is yet another thing to learn and worry about, then if you want optimum control ability that takes advantage of Live, the best option is Push ($600). This doesn't take into account 3rd party plug ins needed to authorize and install etc. etc. etc. Do you see where this is going? To make Live "great" is inconvenient, pricey, time consuming and IMO sloppy.

2. For spontaneous composition, it's best to put yourself in that position to see what would be important as far as options available. Most if not all DAWS aim at composers utilizing prerecorded everything for "live" performance. Prerecorded loops, prerecorded midi files/sequences, prerecorded clips to trigger etc. etc. It is for this reason that they fall short.
First and foremost, to compose spontaneously "on the fly", it is absolutely essential that every and all options, parameters, key shortcuts, capabilities including menu items have the ability to be controlled via MIDI. A very decent example of this is Cockos Reaper's Action list (including the SWS extensions). Basically, the idea is to setup an environment where one can set the computer to one side and perform with MIDI. Avoid Mouse clicks and monitor staring as much as possible preferably completely.
Of course keystroke control is also very important. One can buy a USB keyboard and set it alongside their MIDI controls for optimum control flexibility. Heck might as well throw in Joystick control too!

3. It seems that the former Epoch is going to be a plug in as well as a stand alone application? Let me just throw this idea in here in case the latter qualifies. MULTIPLE INSTANCES. This is key.
One can open a project, create a layout and save it, open another project with a different layout and and save *it* so on and so forth. Now envision a grid similar to Ableton's session view where instead of triggering audio and midi clips, users trigger multiple projects on the fly. They can play each project sequentially or simultaneously all triggered via MIDI. Projects can also be opened via midi where the full layout of the project becomes visible where further manipulation, tweaks, rearrangements etc. can be done on the fly all with full MIDI control. I have yet to see this available in a stable user friendly environment.

Basically, as stated, the best bet is to envision yourself performing and creating on the fly. Composing music on the spot with no prerecorded anything. What would you feel is essential and necessary to be able to do this? BPM control via MIDI notes, extreme flexibility where the program can jump to any part of a "jam" on the fly and loop a specified amount of bars, loop recording etc. etc.
As far as sequencing options and capabilities, it appears you've nailed that part.

[stanlea]

just a hello

[kylie]

just a hello

ah, I was going to do it myself, almost...

I mean, nobody would complain about a 2-month hello frequency, would they?

[woggle]

just a hello

ah, I was going to do it myself, almost...

I mean, nobody would complain about a 2-month hello frequency, would they?

two months seems fair to me - friendly without being pushy, interested yet not obsessive

(.... perhaps not the last one )