PCIe soundcard?

[crazed one]

Not sure if this relates but I saw some mentions of the EMU 1616m in this thread (at least once). I have one, it didn't work for me on my Windows 7 64bit rig.

I went through the process of installing with one of their techs and finally gave up. I heard that Creative stopped working on the drivers for these and their beta drivers for Windows 7 didn't work for me.

I'm currently looking at the Focusrite USB cards.

[rcat]

My take on all of this: After reading countless reviews on soundcards and looking at specs/components, it seems there are many quality products out there at reasonable prices (RME being an exception price-wise). Really, the only major problem appears to be lack of quality drivers. Why is it that RME can make great drivers, but almost no one else can? They must have a genius programmer working for them. Is driver development f*cking magic, or what?

[mandolarian]

Is driver development f*cking magic, or what?

Yes, it sure is. Driver writing is the black art of programming. Oh no, I've said too much. We're not to speak of it in the presence of musicians.

[Kaine]

Why is it that RME can make great drivers, but almost no one else can? They must have a genius programmer working for them. Is driver development f*cking magic, or what?

They have two programmers who run driver development who are brothers. One does PC and the other does MAC. From what I've heard they are VERY competitive.

That aside the other thing you need to consider here regarding drivers is the kit they are working with.

Most interfaces (perhaps 2/3rd's and easily over half) use controllers that they buy off the shelf. They then use the controller makers drivers with a few tweaks to build the interfaces around and ship. If something breaks or fails to be compatible you then have to speak to the manufacture, who then speaks to the controller maker, who then chucks it on the to do list along with everything else.

RME design and make their own. They write the code from the ground up.

They don't pull stuff off shelves, they build the whole damn cabinet.

This is where your money is going and that is why they work.

[rcat]

Why is it that RME can make great drivers, but almost no one else can? They must have a genius programmer working for them. Is driver development f*cking magic, or what?

They have two programmers who run driver development who are brothers. One does PC and the other does MAC. From what I've heard they are VERY competitive.

That aside the other thing you need to consider here regarding drivers is the kit they are working with.

Most interfaces (perhaps 2/3rd's and easily over half) use controllers that they buy off the shelf. They then use the controller makers drivers with a few tweaks to build the interfaces around and ship. If something breaks or fails to be compatible you then have to speak to the manufacture, who then speaks to the controller maker, who then chucks it on the to do list along with everything else.

RME design and make their own. They write the code from the ground up.

They don't pull stuff off shelves, they build the whole damn cabinet.

This is where your money is going and that is why they work.

Ah, ok. Makes complete sense. You truely do get what you pay for in this case. However, those of us who are financially compromised, so to speak, are in a bit of a quandary. Umm, new desktop DAW, or RME interface; and how do I explain to the wifey I need both?

[Zabrilla]

The Yamaha N12 (firewire) has a great sound to it when I record guitars and vocals. Bass using the High Z channel is great also. I can only compare it to my Delta 10 10 that I used for years and its head and shoulders in my opinion.

[musikmachine]

Is there such thing as a good PCIe soundcard? I can't find any from the usual soundcard manufacturers.

thanks

Keith

I recently bought an ESI ESP1010e off another kvr member, it's the cheaper end of their interfaces but it's been rock solid and ultra low latency.

[mkdr]

I'm also thinking of a pci-e soundcard as my next card, instead of firewire/usb solutions. I did a quick test on my current interfaces with that handy RTL-utility. Tested on an 3ghz quad AMD, Win7x64. Results:

M-Audio Delta1010 48khz ASIO
512 : 22.777 msec
256 : 12.112 msec
128 : 6.768 msec
64 : 4.094 msec
(i work on either 64 or 128 latency, both work fine, though 64 eats a bit more cpu)

M-Audio Venom 44.1khz ASIO
512 : 31.943 msec
256 : 19.035 msec (my usual laptop setup latency)
128 : 15.051 msec

So it seems an Avid made top notch modern usb2-interface has no dice over a 13 year old PCI soundcard. Kinda lame for external cards.

[Kaine]

The are some USB interfaces that score far better than that thankfully, althrough all the mini keyboards I've seen (YMMV) with built in interfaces seem to score pretty poorly not just that one. I think they get them up to the level they need to be to function (I'm guessing the out latency is below 10us?) and leave it there it seems rather than optmize it futher to allow it to be used as a recording device.

[mkdr]

The are some USB interfaces that score far better than that thankfully, althrough all the mini keyboards I've seen (YMMV) with built in interfaces seem to score pretty poorly not just that one. I think they get them up to the level they need to be to function (I'm guessing the out latency is below 10us?) and leave it there it seems rather than optmize it futher to allow it to be used as a recording device.

Well.. you are demonstrating the basic answer that is provided everytime someone proves external soundcards suck. The lack of information is the real killer here. So please could you run the tool on your external soundcard so we can look at facts and leave all this vague nonsense of some imaginary products that are supposed to work nicely. Thanks.

[highkoo]

And lets also provide pricing on all of the items we are mentioning also...

Its not fair to ignore price points when this issue most affects bedroom producers who are not working with budgets to written off...

[mkdr]

And lets also provide pricing on all of the items we are mentioning also...

Its not fair to ignore price points when this issue most affects bedroom producers who are not working with budgets to written off...

I bought my Delta card used, 100e
Venom synth was 189e

[Kaine]

Well.. you are demonstrating the basic answer that is provided everytime someone proves external soundcards suck. The lack of information is the real killer here. So please could you run the tool on your external soundcard so we can look at facts and leave all this vague nonsense of some imaginary products that are supposed to work nicely. Thanks.

Sorry? Which card exactly? We already test and contribute to the published results.
http://dawbench.com/images/dawbench-llp-09-12-2.jpg

I personally run a KA6 on my laptop setup and a old RME 9632 in my desktop. The KA can do around 10us @ 64 which is pretty much what you need for realtime recording & monitoring. In fact all the results from testing that unit are written on that chart.

The point I was trying and failing (it appears) to make was that you can't compare the the synths with interfaces. The interfaces are meant to be recording & playing back audio and (if built right) will be optimized to do so. The minisynths are sound playback devices essentially, so why the hell would any firm want to optimize them for recording through? They want you to buy a sound card as well.

We've taken apart three or four of the popular minisynths and they all look to be based around controller chips that we saw in widespread use 4 or 5 years ago at the very best, any number of them are based around USB 1 solutions which is even more shocking. Either these old chips are unwanted and they are kicking about cheap or I suspect a few firms may just have stock piles of them to shift from older interface models, either way they are not going out of their way to fit the latest and greatest or spend the time agonizing over tweaking them.

You can't hold them up to be shining examples of external interfaces which is what I should have just said.

The real shame here is the Delta series. Those things pre-date the Avid takeover and all the external boxes that Avid did were fairly lackluster in comparison. Even more shocking if you can remember just how much better the Delta series drivers got after Avid took over and did the re-write on them.

[mkdr]

Sorry? Which card exactly? We already test and contribute to the published results.
http://dawbench.com/images/dawbench-llp-09-12-2.jpg

Hey thats cool. Thanks! I didn't notice that when i checked your site.
This is exactly the kind of information that is useful

I personally run a KA6 on my laptop setup and a old RME 9632 in my desktop. The KA can do around 10us @ 64 which is pretty much what you need for realtime recording & monitoring. In fact all the results from testing that unit are written on that chart.

With 10us you are probably refering to 10 milliseconds = 10ms? Not 10 microsecond = 10 μs? Sorry, I'm an engineer (no. not a soundengineer.. the real one)

The point I was trying and failing (it appears) to make was that you can't compare the the synths with interfaces. The interfaces are meant to be recording & playing back audio and (if built right) will be optimized to do so. The minisynths are sound playback devices essentially, so why the hell would any firm want to optimize them for recording through? They want you to buy a sound card as well.

They did advertise it as a all you need soundcard/synth package from what i recall. It does a good job at it too. Personally my favorite mobile thing at the moment. Lot better than other external interfaces i've used (haven't tested that many though..). So your point is valid, but not for this piece in my opinion.

You can't hold them up to be shining examples of external interfaces which is what I should have just said.

Your prob right about that. This was just the best interface i've come in contact with. I've used a few firewire presonus boxes and stuff that are integrated to dj-gear. Not great stuff at all.. and not exactly free stuff either.

The real shame here is the Delta series. Those things pre-date the Avid takeover and all the external boxes that Avid did were fairly lackluster in comparison. Even more shocking if you can remember just how much better the Delta series drivers got after Avid took over and did the re-write on them.

They aren't that great now either. They tend to hog up the PCI bus in some way that causes crashes in the long run. That's why I'm here thinking of pci-e soundards in the first place

[mkdr]

Is there such thing as a good PCIe soundcard? I can't find any from the usual soundcard manufacturers.

thanks

Keith

I recently bought an ESI ESP1010e off another kvr member, it's the cheaper end of their interfaces but it's been rock solid and ultra low latency.

Just tested out the ESI ESP1010e on my machine. It easily runs on the lowest latency setting of 48 samples... but it's got an additional buffer in it. RTL is at 8.701 msec, which is a bit more than what the Delta 1010 can give. The Esi seems to be more solid than the M-Audio though. Only problem is that my machine can't reboot with it. Strange.

Oh, and unlike Delta 1010 the ESP 1010 is not really a 1010 soundcard. It's not 10 inputs & 10 outpus because channels 1-2 are selectable between analog or digital input. Whereas on Delta the digital input has it's own ASIO channel. You can't make a 8 channel soundcard into 10 channel one by adding a patchbay



Even though the initial latency is a bit higher on the ESI it seems to have one advantage. As it easily runs on the 48 sample latency and is very stable also DSP effects from a PCI Powercore card run with 96 samples latency. In that way it's actually lowering my overall system latency considerably. I have to see if this puppy fits my needs. The SPDIF scam might still be a deal breaker for me.