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magicmusic
KVRian
 
513 posts since 11 Nov, 2013

Postby magicmusic; Wed Mar 22, 2017 1:50 am when import a midi song, bass sound diffrent in octave with SF2:RC Bass and SF2: General User GS-RC

with the SF2 general User GS-RC the song sound correct in Bass. With RC Bass it sound 1 octave too low. It sound also 1 Octave too low when use any VSTI with Bass. its really strange wy the only that play bass correct is the general user GS-RC. what can be the problem ?. hyper realistic bass VSTI do sometimes not play any sound on bass, so its clear the Bass hight is correct in SF2: General User GS-RC

Edit: I test with midi out and the microsoft general midi player. Bass sound correct.maybe general midi have some controllers to transpose ?. I see in general midi controller map RPN. RPN

GM defines several Registered Parameters, which act like Controllers but are addressed in a different way. In MIDI, every Registered Parameter is assigned a Registered Parameter Number or RPN.
in wiki Registered Parameters are usually called RPNs for short.

Setting Registered Parameters requires sending (numbers are decimal):

two Control Change messages using Control Numbers 101 and 100 to select the parameter, followed by
any number of Data Entry messages of one or two bytes (MSB = Controller #6, LSB = Controller #38), and finally
an "End of RPN" message

The following global Registered Parameter Numbers (RPNs) are standardised [2] (the parameter is specified by RPN LSB/MSB pair and the value is set by Data Entry LSB/MSB pair):

0,0 Pitch bend range
1,0 Channel Fine tuning
2,0 Channel Coarse tuning

For example: RPN control sequence to set coarse tuning to A440 (parm 2, value 64):
101:0, 100:2, 6:64, 101:127, 100:127

But a complete sequence to send i do not see in wiki . only this

1 Fine tuning
2 Coarse tuning


maybe some songs change this, but VSTi can not recognize it ?. I show screenshot of bass track. maybe somebody understand what is done. if transpose with rpn can change, then its maybe usefull that RC have a option. add transpose RPN to convertet midi. this mean that the the rpn is not insert and the notes are transpose from RC
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musicdevelopments
KVRAF
 
1944 posts since 9 Jan, 2010

Postby musicdevelopments; Mon Mar 27, 2017 11:03 am Re: when import a midi song, bass sound diffrent in octave with SF2:RC Bass and SF2: General User GS-RC

Dear magicmusic,

RCBass is considered obsolete and is not distributed with the program anymore. I created RCBass many years ago, probably I set the octaves wrong. At the moment I have no time to fix it. I am happy that GeneralUser GS works well.

Thanks,
Attila
http://www.musicdevelopments.com
Music Prototyping And Automated Composition Solutions
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tonedef71
KVRian
 
564 posts since 20 Sep, 2007, from USA

Postby tonedef71; Mon Mar 27, 2017 11:30 am Re: when import a midi song, bass sound diffrent in octave with SF2:RC Bass and SF2: General User GS-RC

If you have a General MIDI bass patch that plays at the octave you are expecting it to, then consider yourself fortunate. There seems to be no official MIDI standard for what octave on the piano keyboard (in relation to middle-C) where any bass instrument patch should be configured to play from. The RCBass soundfont may have been configured to play at the octave suitable for playback of a bass guitar (i.e. on a bass staff that has been transposed down one octave).
magicmusic
KVRian
 
513 posts since 11 Nov, 2013

Postby magicmusic; Mon Mar 27, 2017 12:14 pm Re: when import a midi song, bass sound diffrent in octave with SF2:RC Bass and SF2: General User GS-RC

musicdevelopments wrote:Dear magicmusic,

RCBass is considered obsolete and is not distributed with the program anymore. I created RCBass many years ago, probably I set the octaves wrong. At the moment I have no time to fix it. I am happy that GeneralUser GS works well.

Thanks,
Attila


Hi Attila RCBass is in Octave same as other VSTi. Only SF2: General User GS is diffrent, but it sound in many songs correct on Bass. if bass have correct octave is easy to hear, but if pads etc have correct octave is not so clear. i guess when bass is one octave too low, then all other sounds are 1 octave too low too. when i transpose all 1 octave up i think melody sound not so good i think. really strange. import midi on reaper same, bass too low on VSTI

very few midi files i can import. I have send you a mid file that load too many tracks. for example this https://freemidi.org/download-6841-stil ... -scorpions show 4075 tracks. on the bass begin at bar 50 you can hear that many VSTi (sample tank) play bass 1 octave too low. and because sample tank sample a real bass, the bass is not hear. this song have too audio so you can hear this and compare

https://freemidi.org/download-6841-stil ... -scorpions
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tonedef71
KVRian
 
564 posts since 20 Sep, 2007, from USA

Postby tonedef71; Mon Mar 27, 2017 1:10 pm Re: when import a midi song, bass sound diffrent in octave with SF2:RC Bass and SF2: General User GS-RC

magicmusic wrote:I have send you a mid file that load too many tracks. for example this one show 4075 tracks.
https://freemidi.org/download-6841-stil ... -scorpions

4075 MIDI tracks -- yikes! I think there should have been closer to 10 MIDI tracks for that MIDI file. I feel bad for Attila because he has spent a considerable amount of time and effort already on perfecting the MIDI file import functionality in RC.
magicmusic
KVRian
 
513 posts since 11 Nov, 2013

Postby magicmusic; Tue Mar 28, 2017 12:53 am Re: when import a midi song, bass sound diffrent in octave with SF2:RC Bass and SF2: General User GS-RC

The reason wy there come so many tracks is, because RC put every Phrase on a new track. I hope its only a small problem this file i can not load in, because take too long to create over 4000 tracks. but i have other file i send Attila that show over 400 tracks. this load after short time. see screenshot. maybe a setting can help, have other try import this song too ? see screenshot
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musicdevelopments
KVRAF
 
1944 posts since 9 Jan, 2010

Postby musicdevelopments; Tue Mar 28, 2017 12:56 am Re: when import a midi song, bass sound diffrent in octave with SF2:RC Bass and SF2: General User GS-RC

The midi import bug was fixed today. There was a small bug when reading type 0 MIDI files that had empty track name.
Thank you, Bernd for finding this bug! :tu:
Attila
http://www.musicdevelopments.com
Music Prototyping And Automated Composition Solutions
lulukom
KVRist
 
451 posts since 30 Nov, 2013

Postby lulukom; Tue Mar 28, 2017 1:04 am Re: when import a midi song, bass sound diffrent in octave with SF2:RC Bass and SF2: General User GS-RC

Hello Attila!
And how about importing midi files into already created tracks and templates? Thank you !
magicmusic
KVRian
 
513 posts since 11 Nov, 2013

Postby magicmusic; Tue Mar 28, 2017 4:20 am Re: when import a midi song, bass sound diffrent in octave with SF2:RC Bass and SF2: General User GS-RC

Thanks Attila that you can fix. for test about the Bass problem you can create a Bass generator at C2 Note. then can too hear. SF2 General User GS soundfont Bass is the only that is 1 Octave higher. I test with sample Tank Finger Bass, Kontakt 5 upright Bass(is in Free Version) they all are in hight same as RCBass.
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tonedef71
KVRian
 
564 posts since 20 Sep, 2007, from USA

Postby tonedef71; Tue Mar 28, 2017 5:27 am Re: when import a midi song, bass sound diffrent in octave with SF2:RC Bass and SF2: General User GS-RC

musicdevelopments wrote:The midi import bug was fixed today. There was a small bug when reading type 0 MIDI files that had empty track name.
Wonderful news! I am glad to hear that the bug was easy to find and fix. :tu:
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tonedef71
KVRian
 
564 posts since 20 Sep, 2007, from USA

Postby tonedef71; Tue Mar 28, 2017 5:30 am Re: when import a midi song, bass sound diffrent in octave with SF2:RC Bass and SF2: General User GS-RC

magicmusic wrote:Thanks Attila that you can fix. for test about the Bass problem you can create a Bass generator at C2 Note. then can too hear. SF2 General User GS soundfont Bass is the only that is 1 Octave higher. I test with sample Tank Finger Bass, Kontakt 5 upright Bass(is in Free Version) they all are in hight same as RCBass.

Is the bass problem an issue with RC, or is it an issue with the General User GS soundfont?
magicmusic
KVRian
 
513 posts since 11 Nov, 2013

Postby magicmusic; Tue Mar 28, 2017 7:09 am Re: when import a midi song, bass sound diffrent in octave with SF2:RC Bass and SF2: General User GS-RC

Not RC, so i write it not in bugreports. I thought in general MIDI are transpose settings support in(see controller screenshot). but seem not, so seem wrong octace is on general user GS soundfont. i find this page http://www.schristiancollins.com/generaluser.php so maybe i should write him, and tell that his bass is 1 octave too high. but the strange thing is, that some midi songs sound correct with this 1 octave higher bass
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tonedef71
KVRian
 
564 posts since 20 Sep, 2007, from USA

Postby tonedef71; Tue Mar 28, 2017 11:20 am Re: when import a midi song, bass sound diffrent in octave with SF2:RC Bass and SF2: General User GS-RC

magicmusic wrote:but the strange thing is, that some midi songs sound correct with this 1 octave higher bass
There seems to be no official MIDI standard for what octave on the piano keyboard (in relation to middle-C) where any bass instrument patch should be configured to play from. Some bass instrument patches, such as the bass guitar and double-bass, may be configured to play notes right on the bass staff (transposed one octave higher), whereas other bass instrument patches (perhaps a Minimoog bass?) may be configured with the same bass note range of a keyboard instrument (no transposition with several octaves below middle C). Switching the bass patch in a General MIDI song sometimes requires that an octave offset be applied to the bass track to preserve the bass register.
musicdevelopments
KVRAF
 
1944 posts since 9 Jan, 2010

Postby musicdevelopments; Tue Mar 28, 2017 9:43 pm Re: when import a midi song, bass sound diffrent in octave with SF2:RC Bass and SF2: General User GS-RC

Yes, Tony, this is my experience too.
Many bass sounds have harmonics in higher octaves so transposing the bass sound should happen case by case, you must decide which octave sounds best.
http://www.musicdevelopments.com
Music Prototyping And Automated Composition Solutions
magicmusic
KVRian
 
513 posts since 11 Nov, 2013

Postby magicmusic; Wed Mar 29, 2017 12:49 am Re: when import a midi song, bass sound diffrent in octave with SF2:RC Bass and SF2: General User GS-RC

tonedef71 wrote:
magicmusic wrote:but the strange thing is, that some midi songs sound correct with this 1 octave higher bass
There seems to be no official MIDI standard for what octave on the piano keyboard (in relation to middle-C) where any bass instrument patch should be configured to play from. Some bass instrument patches, such as the bass guitar and double-bass, may be configured to play notes right on the bass staff (transposed one octave higher), whereas other bass instrument patches (perhaps a Minimoog bass?) may be configured with the same bass note range of a keyboard instrument (no transposition with several octaves below middle C). Switching the bass patch in a General MIDI song sometimes requires that an octave offset be applied to the bass track to preserve the bass register.


ah ok now i understand wy the Bass is diffrent in octave. some use the Bass staff and some the keyboard stuff. which is diffrent. so it is clear now, that only the Bass is wrong and other instruments are correct in octave. to get it correct working need a phrase variation to transpose the bass if too low.

then it is also clear, the sound bass of general user GS is wrong because when play midi note 24 for example, all should play at same hz. that some name it as c1 or c2 doesnt matter for the hz. i write to author if he can fix, because all real basses i know, are 1 octave lower as general user GS

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