KVR Audio

astramistil · Post by **astramistil** » Thu Dec 01, 2016 9:51 pm

(I speak french so my english may seem weird, and I dont have much knowlegde in electronics)

(I'm refering alot to this article: https://ask.audio/articles/how-to-build ... ing-teensy)

Hi,

I have specific needs for my workflow in reaper; before ordering anything, can anyone tell me if my 'plan' is gonna work, and what to buy? (I own Zero SLMkII and APC40, but they both take too much place on my desktop, and I tend to always use about 6 or 8 controls; compact or mini alternatives look so crappy and cheaply built!)

========================

1) I need 2 endless encoders (infinite rotation); I want to have a great feeling while Im using my midi controller (so no cheap plastic knobs)

1rst knob - Main knob (reaper cc="control last touched parameters”)
2nd - scroll arrangement horz.

a) I was wondering: do you think I could use these knobs: https://www.amazon.ca/Eastar-Quality-Al ... op?ie=UTF8

with these 360 potentiometers: https://www.amazon.ca/Stkertools-Positi ... entiometer

b) Will the 360 potentiometer work with Teensy?

========================

2) I need at least 6 faders (busses' volume)

I was considering these sliders:
https://www.amazon.ca/Stkertools-Electr ... entiometer

But the shipping cost seems high (15$/6); any other suggestions?

=========================

3) For other knobs (if I want to add more), I would go with these:
https://www.amazon.ca/Single-Linear-Tap ... ter+linear

Will they work with Arduino or Teensy?

(maybe 3-4 trigger switches would also be interesting (start, pause, etc) if you have suggestion; an on/off switch? https://www.amazon.ca/250V-Non-locking- ... gle+switch)
=====================

4) Now the hardest part for me; I read some DIY tutorial and videos, but now Im totally confused on what to use and how to make it work (hardware and software).

So I guess I need:

1- Teensy: https://www.amazon.ca/USB-development-b ... teensy+3.1

or maybe this one? : https://www.amazon.ca/Kuman-Board-ATmeg ... ga328p+MCU

2- I guess some boards like these (1-2 for faders, one for knobs, etc.?)?: https://www.amazon.ca/SODIAL-Solderless ... breadboard

....or this? (I dont wan't to solder if I dont need to)
https://www.amazon.ca/SODIAL-Prototype- ... Stripboard

........and this??
https://www.amazon.ca/SODIAL-Sockets-Ad ... +IC+socket

3- For the casing what would be the easiest options (wood/metal carving seems hard)?

4- Internal wires which one exactly? (there seem to have alot of differences from one another)

external wire other than usb?

5- ………......... anything else?! (haha! .. Im totally lost on that part)

==========

Thanks a lot!

whyterabbyt · Post by **whyterabbyt** » Fri Dec 02, 2016 10:11 am

astramistil wrote:========================

1) I need 2 endless encoders (infinite rotation); I want to have a great feeling while Im using my midi controller (so no cheap plastic knobs)

b) Will the 360 potentiometer work with Teensy?

If they behave like standard rotary encoders, I dont see why not. There's no manufacturer there, so no datasheet, so without that its a bit hard to be absolute, but I dont see why not.

However, they're pretty low-resolution encoders. Ive got some similar-ish ones, and while they'd be fine for a cheap-and-cheerful arduino project, they're pretty much the lowest end of encoders possible. Ive got a nice 200-turn encoder I picked up for about £12 and its vastly superior.

========================

2) I need at least 6 faders (busses' volume)

I was considering these sliders:
https://www.amazon.ca/Stkertools-Electr ... entiometer

But the cost with shipping seems high (15$/6); any other suggestions?

Again, that's not that high. A high-quality fader, such as you'd find on a mixing desk could cost you two or three times that for one.
Anyways, if you're building them into an enclosure, you probably dont need them on the PCB like that.

=========================

3) For other knobs (if I want to add more), I would go with these:
https://www.amazon.ca/Single-Linear-Tap ... ter+linear

Will they work with Arduino or Teensy?

Yup.

(maybe 3-4 trigger switches would also be interesting (start, pause, etc) if you have suggestion; an on/off switch? https://www.amazon.ca/250V-Non-locking- ... gle+switch)
=====================

They'd work too.

4) Now the hardest part for me; I read some DIY tutorial and videos, but now Im totally confused on what to use and how to make it work (hardware and software).

In that case dont start with this kind of project. Start much smaller, and go through the appropriate tutorials carefully, all the way from blinking an LED to reading pots and debouncing switches etc etc.

You will not be able to scale up unless you understand the basics.

So I guess I need:

1- Teensy: https://www.amazon.ca/USB-development-b ... teensy+3.1

or maybe this one? : https://www.amazon.ca/Kuman-Board-ATmeg ... ga328p+MCU

Well one's an Arduino and one's a Teensy, so they're not direct replacements although they're fairly similar in nature.

I havent added it up, but I suspect you have too many 'parts' there for a Teensy to handle. There's only so many sensors (switches, potentiometers, encoders etc) one of these controllers can be connected to at a time without additional electronics.

Again, starting from the basics will help you understand why, and how to get around that.

....or this? (I dont wan't to solder if I dont need to)

You wont need to solder while you're prototyping, but in my opinion a breadboard is not up to the job of 'real-world' use.

3- For the casing what would be the easiest options (wood/metal carving seems hard)?

You'll get plastic project boxes, but considering you want to fit faders, which need long accurate slots, maybe find somewhere that can do cheap lasercutting of wood or acrylic.

4- Internal wire which one exactly? (there seem to have alot of differences from one another)

external wire other than usb?

Not sure what you mean here, sorry.

5- ………......... anything else?! (haha! .. Im totally lost on that part)

Walk, dont run. Your project is a bit complex for someone starting from scratch.

whyterabbyt · Post by **whyterabbyt** » Fri Dec 02, 2016 10:16 am

Teensy 'getting started' page

https://www.pjrc.com/teensy/first_use.html

Arduino tutorials

https://www.arduino.cc/en/Tutorial/HomePage

vegaron · Post by **vegaron** » Fri Dec 02, 2016 2:32 pm

I'm currently working on a similar project and I have two little suggestions.

If your microcontroller is running out of inputs, there are I/O-expanders you can use like the MAX7312. This one provides you with 16 additional pins and can trigger an interrupt. It only needs two pins of your microcontroller for communication. Here I agree with whyterabbyt that you need to learn a lot before being able to build something like that. Including some communication protocols like TWI/I2C which you need for the the MAX232.

Regarding your question for external wiring: I suggest that you don't use USB, but a MIDI-Port. This way you can use your device with every DAW without problems. But this would be the second communication protocol you need to understand, which is UART/RS232. But I think, it is way easier than USB.

whyterabbyt · Post by **whyterabbyt** » Fri Dec 02, 2016 3:31 pm

vegaron wrote:Regarding your question for external wiring: I suggest that you don't use USB, but a MIDI-Port. This way you can use your device with every DAW without problems. But this would be the second communication protocol you need to understand, which is UART/RS232. But I think, it is way easier than USB.

If he goes down the Teensy route, its fairly easy to make it a class compliant MIDI-USB device, so I assume that's why the original project he referenced used one eg

https://www.pjrc.com/teensy/td_midi.html

(in fact this page also gives a solution for multiple devices on one pin, using 74xx series multiplexers)

The USB-Midi hack for genuine Arduinos with a second Atmel chip doing the USB handling would also be a possibility (see Soulsby for some info)

astramistil · Post by **astramistil** » Fri Dec 02, 2016 10:13 pm

Thanks alot guys; great tips!

But the learning curve now seems overwhelming; I initially thought it would be a 'plug this in that' type of project

And the more I read on it + your tips, Im afraid it will take more like 4months instead of 2 weeks (and more $ if I have to buy a startup kit to learn the basics etc.)

Well as an eventual side project I guess it can be fun so if you have any other tips don't hesitate to share them with me!

(whyterabbyt: which better quality 360 potentiometers would you suggest? I think I'll try, once the basics learned, to make work just one knob with teensy, which could be all I need in fact (CC "assign to last touched parameter"); and do you think this knob would work? I want a 'grippy' knob: https://www.amazon.ca/Eastar-Quality-Al ... op?ie=UTF8

Again thx for your time!)

astramistil · Post by **astramistil** » Fri Dec 02, 2016 11:58 pm

I was wondering, do you think I can get somewhere with this kit? I mean, once I tried the basic stuff/tutorials, do you think I can start my midi controller with parts from this kit?

Then I guess I would have to buy only specific things like faders/sliders, casing etc.

Am I too optimist?

https://www.amazon.ca/Adeept-Starter-Br ... tarter+kit

whyterabbyt · Post by **whyterabbyt** » Sat Dec 03, 2016 12:53 am

astramistil wrote:But the learning curve now seems overwhelming; I initially thought it would be a 'plug this in that' type of project

And the more I read on it + your tips, Im afraid it will take more like 4months instead of 2 weeks (and more $ if I have to buy a startup kit to learn the basics etc.)

I think once your past the first part of the curve you'll get a feel for things and it'll seem less overwhelming. Ive seen plenty of students who've never done any programming or electronics in their life cope with it and produce fairly complex devices; you just need to get your head round the basic concepts, and get used to how to break more complex things down into easy, simple stages that you can get working and test independently.

astramistil wrote:(whyterabbyt: which better quality 360 potentiometers would you suggest? I think I'll try, once the basics learned, to make work just one knob with teensy, which could be all I need in fact (CC "assign to last touched parameter"); and do you think this knob would work? I want a 'grippy' knob: https://www.amazon.ca/Eastar-Quality-Al ... op?ie=UTF8

This is the high resolution encoder Ive got.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00 ... UTF8&psc=1

Not sure about those knobs; always go by the shaft diameter to know if something will fit.

astramistil wrote:I was wondering, do you think I can get somewhere with this kit? I mean, once I tried the basic stuff/tutorials, do you think I can start my midi controller my parts from this kit?

Then I guess I would have to buy only specific things like faders/sliders, casing etc.

Am I too optimist?

https://www.amazon.ca/Adeept-Starter-Br ... tarter+kit

Yeah, a kit of parts like that makes a pretty good starting point. The one thing I'd say to remember is that the cheaper Arduino clones sometimes need a slightly different device driver from 'proper' Arduinos, so you may need to track them down and install them separately from the Arduino programming software and sometimes the manufacturers' code and schematics for those kits can have typos and errors, so consider the Arduino tutorials and examples to be the 'proper' version.

There's a few things I always tell people who're not used to this stuff.
(1) Short-circuits can damage or kill components including your Arduino, so make sure you dont cross wires, put stuff down on anything metal etc etc ;
(2) keep your wire colours consistent (keep to red for power, black for ground, other colours for sensors etc); makes it much easier to follow what connections do what.
(3) if you're using premade jumper wires (as per that kit) on a breadboard then you quite quickly wind up with a few wires 'arching' around the breadboard or to the Arduino board (because the wires tend to be long) .When its crowded, it gets quite easy to accidently dislodge them and break connections, so keep an eye on that especially if you move things around (some cheaper breadboards can be slightly looser and not grab the wire ends as much either, so that wont help.)

astramistil · Post by **astramistil** » Sat Dec 03, 2016 5:51 pm

I think I'll try something basic from this tutorial:
http://djtechtools.com/2015/08/25/how-t ... ontroller/

to make only one knob works.

1) From what I understand, it should work if I buy only those parts:

2) do I need the "Teensy to USB Adapter/Mount" or I can use only the "micro usb to usb cable" and the Tweensy?

3) will the encoder work with Tweensy?

4) Is the casing large and high enough? (I know you told me to not use pre-made wires otherwise end up with clusters, but if its only for one knob I guess this case should be ok?)

If it works, I'll go for better and more potentiometer.

Then for the software part, I guess I can start from what the guy coded, and then work my way around with tutorial and friend that I know that often code.

Am I missing something, or being too optimistic?

elxsound · Post by **elxsound** » Sat Dec 03, 2016 6:07 pm

Sorry for piggy-backing this conversation, but I'm also in the same spot of looking to start with some basics (having only done some basic work with gameboy mods).

Is there a recommendation on a breadboard? The reviews are all over the place for some.

I'd eventually like to build my CME UF80 into a desk without the built-in encoder and faders that I don't like to use. I wouldn't mind repurposing those faders into a separate standalone controller if possible. Different thread for a different time, but comes from the same need of having a controller fit better to my space and needs. Will be a fun project that I hope to complete before there a littles ones in my future.

whyterabbyt · Post by **whyterabbyt** » Sat Dec 03, 2016 6:11 pm

astramistil wrote:I think I'll try something basic from this tutorial:
http://djtechtools.com/2015/08/25/how-t ... ontroller/

to make only one knob works.

1) From what I understand, it should work if I buy only those parts:

2) do I need the "Teensy to USB Adapter/Mount" or I can use only the "micro usb to usb cable" and the Tweensy?

[/quote]

You mean an adaptor like this?

https://www.pjrc.com/store/cable_usb_panel_micro.html

Shouldnt need it.

3) will the encoder work with Tweensy?

Unless it works very oddly, and there's no documentation, then yeah. If its been aimed at Arduino use, cant see why there'd be any issues.

4) Is the casing large and high enough?

Cant tell, Im afraid. I'd get that last, after the thing is built so you know the final dimensions.

(I know you told me to not use pre-made wires otherwise end up with clusters, but if its only for one knob I guess this case should be ok?)

Hmmm. The teensy has no headers so you'll have to do some soldering I think, whether that's dupont headers or bare wires or whatever.

And the encoder looks like it has a female header, so if thats true then for your M/F jumpers to work, it'll need to be header pins on the Teensy.

Or alternately with M/M jumpers, you'd solder one end directly to the Teensy and plug in to the encoder.

astramistil · Post by **astramistil** » Sat Dec 03, 2016 6:51 pm

Again, thanks alot I think I'm going somewhere

I agree that I should wait for final dimension concerning the project box. And I'll ask a friend for soldering.

So before I order anything, just to be sure:

1) This should be enough to make work one knob in Reaper from the hardware perspective:

2) and here's the knob specification concerning which jumper to use: https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B01HIA ... BRGU&psc=1

3) To make it work in Reaper from the software perspective, implementation should be easy and straighforward (I mean, I can look at any tutorial concerning the subject and wont encounter major issues)

4) Extra: Would it be alot harder to make it wireless? http://www.adeept.com/index.php?con=ind ... duct&id=46

do I have only to solder it to tweensy, then simply find the code on internet (or maybe there are templates in arduino software)

Or the controller would not have enough power to work properly, and what if I want add 8 sliders eventually in term of power?

whyterabbyt · Post by **whyterabbyt** » Sun Dec 04, 2016 8:26 pm

Damn, now that I can see the part from multiple angles, it looks like its actually got pins on the header. Sorry.

Wireless will definitely be significantly harder

power wont be an issue, sliders are passive so they dont use any.

astramistil · Post by **astramistil** » Sun Dec 04, 2016 9:00 pm

so I can officially ''procede to checkout'' and everything should work (from the hardware perspective) fine?

(sorry to insist but I dont want to waste 40+$ and end up being disappointed)

what would you suggest otherwise for the 4 parts that would make everything work fine?

DIY specific midi controller: Im totally lost can anyone help?