Waveform Problem Plugins

[HansP]

there should be some independent "clearing house" that helps to promote standards and solutions across all platforms and vendors, gathering also all detail issues under a search engine.
it's quite a big industry, so the high number of VST users should be able to create some pressure, when that idea goes around.
(not as big as the HTML scene, where still there is a lot of chaos by vendors breaking or neglecting standards, or standards just don't get into their boots at time, or don't mature properly).



FYI
LittlePlate works well in T6/32 !

[zzz00m]

there should be some independent "clearing house" that helps to promote standards and solutions across all platforms and vendors, gathering also all detail issues under a search engine.
it's quite a big industry, so the high number of VST users should be able to create some pressure, when that idea goes around.
(not as big as the HTML scene, where still there is a lot of chaos by vendors breaking or neglecting standards, or standards just don't get into their boots at time, or don't mature properly).

Well the VST SDK technology was created by Steinberg. If everybody went strictly with Steinberg as the authority on VST, maybe not so much chaos among vendors.

Wikipedia article on VST. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_Studio_Technology

Thousands of plugins exist, both commercial and freeware, and a large number of audio applications support VST under license from its creator, Steinberg.

But found this line in the Programming Languages section in the article. Maybe a clue to some chaos among developers.

A large number of commercial and open-source VSTs are written using the Juce C++ framework instead of direct calls to the VST SDK, because this allows multi-format (VST, AudioUnit and Real Time AudioSuite) binaries to be built from a single codebase.

[whyterabbyt]

Well the VST SDK technology was created by Steinberg. If everybody went strictly with Steinberg as the authority on VST, maybe not so much chaos among vendors.

Steinberg created a vast amount of chaos in the first place, because they failed to do a semi-decent job of this for VST2.

Their solution was throw baby out with the bathwater and replace it with an inadequate and unnecessary replacement, VST3, thus creating Even More Chaos.

So, erm, no.

[dRowAudio]

Ok, so I've looked in to the Waves Bass Slapper and it does indeed crash.
The problem is that it crashes really early on during initialisation. It's crashing so early that we have barely done anything with the plugin at this time.

It's crashing when we send the effOpen opcode which doesn't take any parameters so it's unlikely we're sending anything incorrectly. http://www.dith.it/listing/vst_stuff/vs ... 1adfe252a1

To double check it's not a problem with Waveform itself, I loaded the JUCE Plugin Host which is a minimal patching host and got the same crash.

JUCE Plugin Host - Bass Slapper.png

I would love to fix this but without Waves letting us know what in GenericMulitcoreProcessor.dll has crashed it's virtually impossible to figure out.

It could be that they're expecting some other call before the initialisation (the VST spec is extremely vague on this), it could be that they expect the host to be built with some special compiler or linker flags that adjust various build settings (we already had to discover through trial and error to set the /NXCOMPAT:NO /DYNAMICBASE:NO flags for some plugin compatibility).
The irritating thing is that it might be something extremely simple but we'd just be poking in the dark to try and find it and possibly breaking compatibility with other plugins.

As Waves have made it clear they don't want to support Waveform I can't see what else I can do at this point.

[HansP]

But found this line in the Programming Languages section in the article. Maybe a clue to some chaos among developers.

A large number of commercial and open-source VSTs are written using the Juce C++ framework instead of direct calls to the VST SDK, because this allows multi-format (VST, AudioUnit and Real Time AudioSuite) binaries to be built from a single codebase.

JUCE is Tracktion-related, isn't it?
But many developers not related to Tracktion are using it already.

Steinberg would do a great job in fully adopting this Juce, and to even out all those little issues, and make something greater of that VST2 standard. (To me, VST3 looks quite obsolete.)
But business-wise, industries are following short-sighted tactics to block each other.

[dRowAudio]

It would be closer to say Tracktion/Waveform uses JUCE. The JUCE Plugin Host is a minimal plugin host that we use for debugging and to try and minimise the problem space and number of variables.

If plugin developers verified their plugins worked in the JUCE Plugin Host we'd have a much easier time finding out if there are additional problems with the Waveform layer on top of that.

The JUCE plugin host is free,open source, can be built in seconds and is scriptable so should be easy to add to most companies CI.
As there are more and more hosts built on top of JUCE, confirming compatibility with that would be a huge step in wider host compatibility.

[HansP]

What I mean is that in the eyes of business people JUCE is linked with the name of Julian Storer, and with opening up a whole scene for more creativity and accessibility in every sense.
Some sharks might not like that whole initiative, just because...
That's why I wrote about some potential pressure by the (theoretical) community of all VST users.
(When Steinberg adopts JUCE officially, as a standard VST has to function with, Waves would have to follow.)

[zzz00m]

JUCE is Tracktion-related, isn't it?
But many developers not related to Tracktion are using it already.

Check the post from dRowAudio just before yours.

Steinberg would do a great job in fully adopting this Juce, and to even out all those little issues, and make something greater of that VST2 standard. (To me, VST3 looks quite obsolete.)

"In September, 2013, Steinberg discontinued maintenance of the VST 2 SDK. In December, Steinberg stopped distributing the SDK."

And yet, here we are...

[tonedef71]

... I would love to fix this but without Waves letting us know what in GenericMulitcoreProcessor.dll has crashed it's virtually impossible to figure out.

Thanks for looking into this. It sounds like I (and others) need to put some consumer pressure on Waves to expand their VST host support.

[HansP]

That's the point exactly.
Steinberg tried to disconnect something, and it does not happen, because an important part of the whole scene is still connected around VST2.
These tactics are known everywhere, e.g. among Apple and Microsoft, attempting to disconnect a system of the competitor with its users, by hyping a new standard, that deliberately is incompatible.
So, while the smaller companies can't really put up the fight, the users still might be able to do this.

(One attack vector might be, that competitors to Waves are releasing many more free plugins, that are top notch plus work with VST2, and users fully embrace that and buy a lot of the "pro" or "full" versions of those plugins, given that the vendor continues to support VST2. Another argument in that direction is the Black Friday business, where major vendors sold stuff at prices down to 10 or 15 percent of regular. So if they can manage to keep most of that VST2-compatible, then they can connect to a much wider user base, also in the non-pro sectors. And the latter (home.. small shop..) becomes more and more crucial in many software sectors. If Steinberg still dislikes, but some indie clearinghouse jumps in, featuring JUCE/VST compatibility, they might reconsider, and Waves might reconsider to support JUCE.)

[innervisions]

Hey everyone. My name is Eyal Amir and I'm a software engineer at Waves.
More specifically, I was on the development team for Bass Slapper, so this topic is quite interesting to me.

I don't have Waveform/Tracktion installed here on my system, but I did compile the latest version of the JUCE plugin host, and noticed that indeed the plugin crashed when I used the Waves VST2 shell.

However - the plugin worked just fine when I used the Waves VST3 shell!

So, I probably need to debug here and see what the issue here. Other VST2 hosts that we normally try this plugin on (Ableton Live, Reaper and older versions of Cubase, for example) seems to be able to run it just fine. I wonder, what could be different about the JUCE plugin host that makes it different than any other host?

I will try investigating myself and let you know if I find anything or even manage to fix it on our end somehow.

Thanks!
Eyal

[dRowAudio]

Thanks Eyal for taking a look!

Please do let me know if you need anything or NFRs etc. for Waveform. The plugin hosting in Waveform is very similar to the JUCE Plugin Host though so if you can get it working in there it's likely to work in Waveform too.

If there's any fixes or workarounds that can be done from our end (and the JUCE side too) please let us know. It's difficult to figure out exactly what's causing the crash deep in the plugin call stack.

Thanks again,
Dave

[netsvetaev]

Have an issue with Eventide Equivocate on Waveform 8.2.0 on Windows 7 x64. Plugin crashes DAW when inserted.

Now worked in 8.2.7. Thank you very much!

[stonarocka]

Since I updated to 8.2.7 Waveform crashes everytime I try to create a sidechain.
I tried it with several compressors, HOFA, Cakewalk and the built in Tracktion Comp ... no difference.
Waveform immediatly disappears from screen.
When I try to load older projekts, that include sidechain compression, Tracktion crashes loading them.

(Win7 HP x64)

[netsvetaev]

Since I updated to 8.2.7 Waveform crashes everytime I try to create a sidechain.
I tried it with several compressors, HOFA, Cakewalk and the built in Tracktion Comp ... no difference.
Waveform immediatly disappears from screen.
When I try to load older projekts, that include sidechain compression, Tracktion crashes loading them.

(Win7 HP x64)

Same configuration. Also crashes with some plugins, but only when I try to sidechain a folder/submix track.