Tracktion alternatives?

Discussion about: tracktion.com
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TSC wrote:We wish you guys would reframe the discussion - rather than struggling with particular things to the point at which you want to scream, take a moment to let us know and we will either improve it, or at the very least, let you know why it is the way it is

Get involved and help shape your favorite DAW - not many folk take the time/energy to give these detailed responses - we greatly value your input and welcome it
It's great that you're involved directly in the forum, but I've submitted related feature requests and detailed descriptions of fundamental problems here, to the zendesk, and to the bug tracker over the years. I don't think any of the feature requests got any response at all and the only bugs that got fixed were relatively minor, and even they were usually fixed silently without a response to my posts here. I didn't see the point in keeping on submitting stuff that just gets ignored. I would have submitted directly to the bug tracker, but since 2015 my bug submissions just silently disappear and I was never told why. That list I posted above is by no means comprehensive.

If you look at the Change log since the release of Waveform, the vast majority of changes are to fix problems in the new features. And yet 6 months ago I submitted evidence of fundamental MIDI editing problems and audio clicking problems that are still not fixed. These things affect me every time I use the program and I'm tired of having to waste what amounts to hours working around these sorts of problems. The usability issues have been mounting up over the years and I just feel really sad that it's got to this stage. I've been using Tracktion exclusively for 15 years and have been very patient in waiting for things to be fixed. Until Waveform I upgraded every version as soon as it was released knowing that I wouldn't use it for 6 months. I wanted to support you even though experience had shown that I couldn't trust the new one until a few point upgrades. Many people have bought Tracktion based on my enthusiastic recommendation.

So what more can I do? I've done everything I can as a user to make Tracktion the best it can be. I've stuck with it even though on more than one occasion some serious rendering bugs have nearly caused me to miss deadlines and lose thousands of pounds. It's been hard for me to acknowledge that I need to look at other software, but here we are. I don't expect you to stop what you're doing and do what I say, but I honestly feel really let down.
i9-10980HK. Windows 10 (21H2). Komplete Audio 6. Studio One 5.4.1.

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TSC wrote: not many folk take the time/energy to give these detailed responses
To be honest, over the years there have been countless valuable FR's and suggestions for improvements both on this forum and the bug tracker that have been consistently ignored.

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absolutely true!
i have refrained from giving too much time and energy into this anymore.

tracktion has their own ideas obviously, which is great, they have to do it in their own consistent way.
naturally this leads to frustrations, as not all needs/wishes can be taken care of. so people come and go ...
(and as with many software, new features often get more attention than honing out bugs and workflow. the latter is much more difficult and does not bring much new customers probably, but who knows ...)

but please don't use these all too easy sounding and unpersonal words about the "valuable feedback".
here is somebody speaking from years of experience (and frustration) with the program! the reaction should be very telling to you!
either do really engage in the discussion or let it go.

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@fromwithin:
great response!

i was already thinking hard what daw i could recommend to you (taking into account your already made experiences with some others, you described), but i find it really difficult to think of anything following up tracktion.
i for myself am using samplitude besides tracktion, but it may need some time to get used too, though it offers some great workflows if you learn its tools and quirks.
if you try it and need some help, drop me a pm.

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Thank you fromwithin!

Ditto on the suggestion to become a waveform beta tester / reporter.

And ditto on the high praise for taking the time and energy to make and share such a deep and comprehensive list.

Even if you land on a different DAW platform, please continue to offer your savvy Tracktion / Waveform insights!

Cheers to TSC for encouraging and honoring the critical feedback.

Gratefully,
P

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Maybe what would be great would be that you guys @Tracktion took a day or two off coding, and come up with a real roadmap that would help you redefine your priorities, and publish it. It would keep us informed in advance of what's going on and possibly weight-in on changing some priorities.
While I kinda understand the need for you to differentiate Waveform from competition by adding more cool features, this strategy won't work if the fundamentals are broken. So, there's really no need of you to fear that your roadmap will give clues to competition and remove that advantage. If you really want to hide a specific super-sicrit feature, fine, just mention you're working on something special, but don't hide the rest.
By adding features and not fixing the core, you will eventually have to pay the technical debt, and the more you wait, the costlier it'll be.

I'm rooting for you because I do like what little I played with Waveform, and I'm glad you support Linux, but at some point I'll have to have something that works, and if it's not Waveform, it'll be Bitwig.

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Indeed - we do enjoy taking a couple of days off coding, sitting down with a beer and heading over to forums like our friends from Bitwig - reading other companies user forums is like medicine to our beaten down spirits! Regardless of how big the company or how hard you try, forums are just caustic places for devs. We try to see through the fire and find the goodness - and there is actually a lot of it. I could tell you that we do implement a good proportion of user suggestions - but being a forum, you won't believe it ;)
Tracktion Software Corporation

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OK. So let's all focus on that goodness, for goodness sake.

TSC has brought Tracktion/Waveform very very far in the last couple of years. And they are a SMALL company. The dev team could probably fit in a large car if it had to. :) Yet they are supporting three OSs, the software is far from expensive, they are rolling out some major instruments, they are still innovating in their own ways and following a unique vision within the industry. I can't speak to the OP's experiences with the dev team and responsiveness of course. For me, it's been pretty amazing -- especially in comparison to most of the other tools I use (e.g., Logic, Cubase).

Are there issues? Absolutely. The weird Collective thing is just a PIA for some. Most of the GUI inconsistencies so thoughtfully detailed earlier are real and should be addressed over time. For me personally, stability under load has been more of an issue than I am comfortable with. However, steady progress is being made and I think if TSC is "guilty" of anything, it might be that they are moving fast and taking on a lot with a small team. However, not out of greed I think (if they were greedy the price would be different), but out of an aggressive plan to evolve the application.

OP: It is really unfortunate that you are so frustrated. If you really must go, it's a bit hard to suggest a replacement if the traditional paradigms do not interest you. Logic/Cubase/StudioOne/Harrison/Reaper are all solid DAWs but very conventional. Bitwig is a fascinating environment, but there are folks in that Forum who express frustrations with that team analogous to yours here. ReNoise is COMPLETELY different of course, but has a helluva learning curve...

FWIW, Your observations were thoughtful and well documented sir, and input like that can be a tremendous boon. If you were not acknowledged, something went wrong somewhere. But I encourage you to consider sticking it out a bit longer and continue to lend a hand.

Sincerely wishing you much success wherever you land.
G
iMacPro 1,1 | 64gb | OSX 10.15.7
http://www.gesslr.com
http://www.storyaudio.com

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I've been using computer based sequencers and DAWs since the Atari days and I've tried many different programs throughout the years.

They all had flaws. Sometimes they had annoying little bugs, sometimes they had showstopper bugs. At other times they missed a lot of features and the promises by the developers were never fulfilled. Some of the developers even went out of business so support ended instantly and license servers stopped working (total loss). This list goes on and on and on.

There is no exception to this scheme. The best way to deal with it is to just use what you have and work around the limits of your gear. Make the best out of it and convert the limits from obstacles to challenges. Sometimes these limits will get you out of your comfort zone and inspire you because you have to do things differently.

The grass is not greener on the other side of the fence. If you want to change something then write bug reports and send feature requests to the developers.

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TSC wrote:I could tell you that we do implement a good proportion of user suggestions - but being a forum, you won't believe it ;)
It might very well be true, and that would be cool, but how about letting us know? I must say the bitwig guys are also very guilty of secrecy, :dog: But at least it doesn't crash when I select a sound interface :)
I think I like Waveform's workflow better, but... I just need it to work. I started using Helm (which I bought, even if I could have had if for free) and things are a little better, except fort he interface thing.

Anyway, really, knowing what's going on helps us a lot for supporting you.

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I asked for a Linux version when Tracktion 4 was being worked on and Bam they had a Linux beta ... They've done a good job overall .

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My only complain would be, that many great concepts are implemented but were left alone without further development/thinking outside of the box... i.e.
-Implementing a plugin manager with different options to display the list of plugins ...but still no option to rename a plugin...
- making clip presets but never developed further like Ableton clips
- Edit clips (intrduced over 3 years ago) could do so much more... but left alone
- Clip Layer FX... following the Tracktion scheme... there will be never any new fx...
- LFO Modifier... done very well... but wait... no S/H... what a shame
- now the new pattern generator... really great but limited to 1 bar length... really???

You guys come up with really really great ideas... and then stop to zero... and never touch again... that´s really a pity imho. There is so much potential in this already existing features... but you never released the beast...
Perhaps, that´s a good description: you create a really wild beast... cut it´s legs, break it´s teeth, put it in a cage and chuck the keys away...
Then you create the next beast... but sadly, it´s destiny is the same...

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Hey Trancit - fair points - we do try to get some big ideas across and we have a lot of them - the popular ones will certainly evolve over time

So to run through your list:
- making clip presets but never developed further like Ableton clips
For W9, we have tons of new presets all over the app - its a whole area of development which we think you will love

- Edit clips (intrduced over 3 years ago) could do so much more... but left alone
We have been thinking of ways to simplify this concept - tied into the preset work I mentioned above - its a great tool, just very complex from a dependencies perspective at the moment. We have come up with a way to do the same thing but better

- Clip Layer FX... following the Tracktion scheme... there will be never any new fx...
Sure - what ideas do you have? Perhaps we already can do what you want but using another tool (like automation patterns)

- LFO Modifier... done very well... but wait... no S/H... what a shame
Will mention sample and hold to Dave when he gets back from vacation - he is working on a long list of additional modifier tools for another major feature revision

- now the new pattern generator... really great but limited to 1 bar length... really???
Not limited to a bar silly - the pattern can be any length already :)
Tracktion Software Corporation

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TSC wrote: - making clip presets but never developed further like Ableton clips
For W9, we have tons of new presets all over the app - its a whole area of development which we think you will love
The point is not to have more presets, but developing this further, that i.e. an audio clip remembers the fx from the track it was saved from...
or a midi clip loads with an instrument... with preview from the browser...
as I said like Ableton clips... not just midi data, this I don´t need,therefore I can use an ordinary midi file...
As we are at this topic:
FX Presets have in and output possibilities in the browser, but midi files can just be previewed with a beep sound??? I don´t understand the logic behind this, but perhaps I am missing something :-)
- Edit clips (intrduced over 3 years ago) could do so much more... but left alone
We have been thinking of ways to simplify this concept - tied into the preset work I mentioned above - its a great tool, just very complex from a dependencies perspective at the moment. We have come up with a way to do the same thing but better
As you want to work on this... what makes it limited in my eyes, is that it is not very universal...
It is great for simplifying projects but it could i.e. do what Bitwigs group clips do...
That you can save a bunch of tracks with instruments/FX into a single file, which can be auditioned in the browser and brought into new projects as a bunch of tracks again not just a simple audio file...
Great for creating drumloops without being limited to an audiofile...which is always problematic when tempo changes ...
- Clip Layer FX... following the Tracktion scheme... there will be never any new fx...
Sure - what ideas do you have? Perhaps we already can do what you want but using another tool (like automation patterns)
Now you got me... :-)
Honestly, I have no idea... but I wouldn´t have had the ideas for the built effects neither... so you are asking the wrong person :-)
But I am sure, if you do a survey here in the forum, there are some smart guys with lots of ideas for that :-)
- LFO Modifier... done very well... but wait... no S/H... what a shame
Will mention sample and hold to Dave when he gets back from vacation - he is working on a long list of additional modifier tools for another major feature revision
This would be very nice... I think S/H is one of the best sources for modulation, especially, if your just after a bit variation...
Again as we are on this topic (same for many areas of Waveform)...
I never seen any possibility to sync to dotted values, which in my eyes are the most musical ones for i.e. delay or LFO...
Do I miss here something???
- now the new pattern generator... really great but limited to 1 bar length... really???
Not limited to a bar silly - the pattern can be any length already :)
I guess I described it wrong... what I mean is 1 bar note length... as for pads, this is not enough for me...

Anyway, thank you very much for listening...
As a new customer, I am just scratching the surface till now, but I enjoy Waveform very much (coming from T1 long long time ago :-) )

2 little points I noticed with Racks...
- Would it be hard to implement some macro controls??? I think racks could benefit a lot from some kind of grouped controls for the containing plugins...
- I miss a dedicated crossover filter in the Racks... I mean without macro controls, the normal filters used in the included Rack presets, aren´t not really useable without some macro controls and with nowadays music...: Multiband processing is everywhere and Racks are perfect for doing this..

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@ Trancit - I think you will really like what we have coming :)
Tracktion Software Corporation

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