KVR Audio

antto · Post by **antto** » Sun Jul 12, 2009 7:25 pm

sinkmusic: it is positive, i want to improve it as much as i can
if you play a melody with midi notes - you will not get the 303 sound
it will sound like a very dumb kiddie synthie.. believe me!
when i started the project, it didn't had a sequencer, if someone told me that 2 months later i was going to make a sequencer for it and remove the normal-midi-playing mode - i wasn't going to believe him..
the sequencer was pretty hard to do.. i had so much problems at first
the decision was hard to drop the "normal" mode and leave only the sequencer to play the synth but it's the only way you can get a 303 sound
i am pretty sure that you can't make a 303 pattern with a Piano roll with only Velocity and portamento in a normal DAW
the sequencer actually looks at the previous and next steps to figure what to do in the current step.. it's really complicated, so i did it once, now you just use it and 303 sound is done easy for you
it isn't really easy to make a pattern, i know
but when you make it - it sounds right! and btw, save your most precios patterns as NSP files, so you don't loose them accidentaly (and don't use presets!) or if you've done a lot of patterns, you can save the whole sequencer memory too, at once

i'll try to well-document these things and provide tips too

GUI too small - yes..
actually the knobs, the LCD-digits, the screws, and the cables on the back panel, were rendered in 3dsmax to look realistic.. everything else i did in MS Paint, including the fonts..
i'm not even sure how i made it fit inside that small rectanlgle! i didn't had any plan or idea how it has to look like, i just started with the sequencer part and i added more stuff while making the GUI (that i had to add before that but didn't had the ideas then)
so, the GUI was a hard job, i really don't think i will touch it again too much, i work on 1024x768 resolution, on a 17" monitor, i guess it'll look bad on higher resolutions.. i also hate working with HUGE GUI vsts since i have to move them to turn a knob..

tho if that is really a problem, i can try to think of something..

one thing i will do for the next release, is a non-SSE version of the plugin, so users can decide which dll to use depending on their CPU, i wanted to try the synth on my old machine but it has no SSE.. i had a C000001D external exception in FruityLoops3.56 there (windows98SE) tho the plugin was able to extract the SEMs, which tells it would run if it wasn't for the SSE code, amazing

RunBeerRun · Post by **RunBeerRun** » Sun Jul 12, 2009 7:48 pm

Sounds good, it's a slam dunk!

although I like realtime performance, so I can't use it.

antto · Post by **antto** » Sun Jul 12, 2009 7:56 pm

phankiejankie wrote:Spend some time yesterday playing with it. First impression is that this new silver box clone is solid. You can make patterns and sounds beyond what the 303 could due to the additional features while retaining the 303 feel and I like that.

Soundwise I can't say how close it is to the original but it certainly has the trademark 303 characteristics. My only two concerns so far is the very small GUI and that the sound "struggles" on higher resonance (especially with a square wave and heavy distortion) and even in x4 oversampling it comes out a bit on the "cheap" side.

In general though this is a very nice plugin and enjoyed my time a lot tweaking it. Keep up the good work, thumbs up! I will continue mess up with it and post any issues I may find.

Ps: Some pattern presets would help people a bit too since at first you just think this vsti makes no sound

i don't know how close it sounds to a 303 (i'm sure there are differences)
the closest i can get to a real 303 is youtube and the articles of people who had the real thing.. these were my sources of inspiration..
mostly i used my ears to decide whether it sounds OK or not
another thing that was very important to me: i wanted to do a "classical" 303 while at the same time, i was tempted to add crazy stuff like 2 oscilators or more, different waveforms, different filters..
so i tryed to find some balance between the two, i made everything switchable, tunable, so if someone wants a little bit more gimmick - he can just turn the knob up..
i configured the default preset to have the settings that are as close as possible to a classical 303.. - osc2 off, 24dB filter, no distortion, PW for the pulse a little bit like 98% and not 100..

i think everyone can judje for theirselfs if it sounds close to a 303 or not, it does to me (i wanted a bit more from the filter, but i just don't know enough dsp to use negative feedback from the last pole)

GUI too small - argh.. i'll think of something really, time is the only thing that's against me, and i can't beat it

the filter goes into overdrive with high resonance (it doesn't sound like it is, since it isn't aliasing, but it can't be since it's x4 oversampled all the time)
the optional x4 oversampling switch on the back panel is only for the oscillators, it makes sence to use this only if you load a "hacked" pattern that has notes on really high octaves, <or> if you use Pulse waveform with low values of PW..
only in these 2 cases there is any sence of using the osc oversampling..

yes, the distortion aliases when pushed too far
especially the foldback
i really can't do anything about that..
one thing is sure, you'll get more aliasing if you use an external Hard clipper than if you use the internal, since at least the internal is fed with the (always) 4x oversample output of the filter..

one thing that was very hard with this filter, was to make it sound the same on different Sampling Rates, as much as possible
i am no pole-zero expert, i used brute-force methods to get the coefficients out of the filter <evil laugh here>
after i tuned it so the resonance level looks the same on the whole range, i tuned it again against frequency.. these are two different things, and i think i did it ;]
this was very important to me too..

Patterns? http://www.box.net/shared/7ojaszlg75
check them out.. there's one that uses variable step lengths, and it sounds a bit funky/wierd/shuffly

i'm really glad to see people finding this useful. thank you for replying!

Kriminal · Post by **Kriminal** » Sun Jul 12, 2009 8:17 pm

antto wrote: if you play a melody with midi notes - you will not get the 303 sound
it will sound like a very dumb kiddie synthie.. believe me!

antto wrote: i don't know how close it sounds to a 303 (i'm sure there are differences)
the closest i can get to a real 303 is youtube and the articles of people who had the real thing.. these were my sources of inspiration..

thecontrolcentre · Post by **thecontrolcentre** » Sun Jul 12, 2009 8:25 pm

Thanks for sharing, Antto ... downloading for later.
GUI looks great

thecontrolcentre · Post by **thecontrolcentre** » Sun Jul 12, 2009 9:28 pm

Took a while to suss how to get audio out, but I've got it working in Live8 now (I hadn't realized the default patterns were blank

). This is a really good emulation ... GUI is a bit too small, but I like the sound, and switching between patterns using midi keys is neat. It works well with Automap too. I haven't worked out how to write my own patterns yet, so the random button is very useful

Thanks again (looking forward to seeing some documentation).

antto · Post by **antto** » Sun Jul 12, 2009 10:45 pm

Kriminal: if you want to say something - why not just say it?

thecontrolcentr: thanks!
to ptogram a pattern actually is not quite a big deal, Clear one, so you get all gates to ON
then use Back/Next (Step) to move thru the pattern, by default you can press any button for a step without activating some wierd timing mode or anything
select a key, probably transpose Up/Dn (the little screen with the pluses and minus is the octave actually)
click on any Gate/Accent/Slide button, probably change the StepLength (default is 4/8 = 0.5) and when you're ready - move to the next step
there are some functions for really fast "global" pattern manipulation but i have to document them really
just in short - "To All" "Invert" "Target" "Go!"
these buttons/switches are in a section at the bottom of the panel
for example you have the horrible idea of setting all the accents to ON, for the whole pattern
normaly, you press Next, and click on the Accent, then repeat untill the end..

a faster way:
set only the current step's accent to ON
set the Target switch to "A" (the display shows "Accent")
press the "To All" button Down - a little "A" will light on the display, right before "Accent" showing that Accent has "To All" function, and is set
be sure that the "Invert" button is not Down too..
whell, now just press the Go! button
all the steps will get the same value for Accent, as the current step

well, that wasn't very short.. so anyway..
if all Gates are Off, and you want to turn them ON
you could just select "G" for Target (display shows Gate now)
then press down the Invert button, and ensure the "To All" button is not pressed too
press Go!
all Gates for the current pattern will be inverted

if you select Pitch as a target - you can only use the "To All" function
it will clone the Pitch of the current step to all others in the pattern
if you press the Invert button - the display won't show the "I" before "Pitch" because it's unavailable for this target.. how do you invert a midi note ;]

and the most fun part:
pressing both the "To All" and "Invert" buttons for any target (and then pressing Go!) will result in Unpredictable Behaviour on that target (randomize !)

i did a lot of good patterns starting of with something either dumb, or just Random, and then using the "To All" + "Invert" combo to randomize the things that i didn't like in the pattern
well, most of the time, i did some final touches, but i got the inspiration from the randomizer..
even only randomizing or inverting the order of the steps can change the pattern so much, that it becomes almost a new one.. and that's done only with about 4 clicks ;]

when you are about to try some function that you're not sure what it does, and your pattern is precious, you can simply Copy it, instead of saving it to a file (more clicks)
the pattern is really copied into the clipboard, so even when you modify it afterwards, you can paste it over, it'll be the same as when you copied it
but it appears there's a little bug with the initialization of the copy buffer, it get's "cleared" when the plugin is reopened (when you save your project, and then reopen it in the DAW)
so still saving patterns is the safest way to keep your good ones safe from accidental harm

hope this throws a bit light on making patterns

antto · Post by **antto** » Sun Jul 12, 2009 11:09 pm

ok, there's a "Alt Prog" button (actually a switch) right next to the Back/Next (step) buttons
you may wonder what it does..
it is nothing special, it just automaticaly presses Next (step) for you, when you select the Key (on the keyboard)
i'm not sure if it's going to be useful and that's why it's Off by default
the idea is that you could enter the keys on the keyboard very quickly, without clicking the "Next" button all the time
set the Transpose, Acc/Gate/Slide and Step Length, right before hitting the Key, since it will move to the next step
really not special, but could be useful sometimes

EDIT: i just found a bug (in FLStudio, but it'll be probably the same with other DAWs too)
the lowest note in the Piano Roll is C0 and should correspond to Pattern-1
as well as the highest C9 to the last Pattern-120
i've probably forgot to check this, since i get Pattern-2 on C0, silly bug

Z3R0T0N1N · Post by **Z3R0T0N1N** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 3:52 am

Hi
[edit] forgot to mention host: EnergyXT 1.41; I will post results in others as I try them. Since this is my host of choice, and it is no longer developed, I am very happy to find it works flawlessly

[/edit]

This thing is great

I love the GUI, too. 'Course I'm using a 22" monitor! But wow, I just love the whole synth. I like the 303 style pattern editor a lot. There is something about composing in that strange, mechanical way that seems to result in patterns that sound better to me. The accent and slide are very well implimented.
I like the PW control, at first I was like, "that's not a 303 square..." and then saw the pulse width

Nice.

Beautiful job on this. Sounds great, looks great, fun to use.

cheers

Z3R0T0N1N · Post by **Z3R0T0N1N** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 4:37 am

@antto: re: fl-studio , if I remember correctly, fl might have the root key set differently to many other hosts. I could be wrong, but it seems to me I have been tripped up by key names in FL more than once. Might want to double check.

cheers

jmh · Post by **jmh** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 9:13 am

antto wrote:Kriminal: if you want to say something - why not just say it?

Don't mind him, he just wanted to point out that he's jealous when someone else makes a better, more complex 'inspired by' synth in SE than him and gets some positive attention. There's something about these grumpy brits...

Nice work, especially with the extra features and GUI

antto · Post by **antto** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 9:32 am

Z3R0T0N1N, jmh thanks guys ;]
well generaly SE synths should work in <all> hosts, this is thanks to Jeff
i just wasn't sure about my modules.. it appears they work too

Nahkranoth · Post by **Nahkranoth** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 10:29 am

Though it's your first post here, antto, I've got your really cool bitcrusher from somewhere (forgot the name tho)

[EDIT]For the life of me I can't figure how to load patterns, there may be bug or something. When I press the "LOAD" button nothing happens, but "SAVE" works fine.
[EDIT2] Ahh, it requires SSE2 too, so it may be the problem...

antto · Post by **antto** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 12:42 pm

Nahkranoth D-BD/SR-D2 ? you probably got it from the SEG downloads section, i haven't uploaded it anywhere else..
btw i believe it has a bug in the decimator accumulator, sometimes i think it "explodes" when it's disabled-reenabled by (for example) SmartDisable in FLStudio, tho i'm not sure

Load button doesn't work but Save button works?
- the sequencer is locked!
check the "Pat Edit" button that's on the bottom-right corner of the panel (it has a red led)
when it's OFF, then you can't modify the current pattern, you can't load (because it would overwrite it) you can't paste/swap, you can't change keys/gates/accents/slides, nothing, you can only save/copy
this switch is useful when you're sure you won't modify the patterns but will continue to work on your track, and probably automate the plugin, then this could prevent accidental "noo, not that button! noooo!" cases ;]

tip: don't modify patterns while the DAW is changing the notes (it'll switch to another pattern and you probably didn't intent that)

the input to the plugin should be polyphonic, the host shouldn't make glide/portamento, this is done by the synth's internal MIDItoCV..

when you load a pattern, it is checked first, it's copied to the pattern slot only if the sequencer *thinks* the pattern is not incorrect/bad

Nahkranoth · Post by **Nahkranoth** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 1:48 pm

D-BD/SR-D2

Oh yeah! No wonder I forgot the name

The led is lit no matter if the button is on/off.
The pattern number is -1 if it matters.
VSTHost and MiniHost don't display any error messages, but Renoise demo throws an error message. So I'm guessing it's an SSE2 issue, because the PC I'm testing it on has SSE, not SSE2.
Will check it at home, I'm hoping to get it working

P.S. Wonderful GUI, as in bitcrusher too, but some switches are hard to use because of the size (when you think you grabbed 'em with mouse you may be wrong).

Link: Venom VB-303 VSTi (Beta release)