KVR Audio

Sandy Klausner · Post by **Sandy Klausner** » Thu May 31, 2012 7:18 pm

Amazing, looking at Genera is like taking a time machine back at least 20 years! This ground has been traveled countless times in an endless list of dataflow-oriented (graphical/visual/iconic) programming languages/tools/expression mediums that are now in the dustbin. Applying icons at the expression level is unproductive, where the real potential productivity gains can only be realized at higher levels of abstractions. Who is your intended developer for this language/tool? It can't be the programmer who is already quite comfortable with scripting and it can't be the 'non-programmer' where the whole idea is to get away from scripting altogether! Sorry for being so harsh, but you really should do more research before expending this coding effort.

Jace-BeOS · Post by **Jace-BeOS** » Thu May 31, 2012 7:47 pm

Sandy Klausner wrote:Amazing, looking at Genera is like taking a time machine back at least 20 years! This ground has been traveled countless times in an endless list of dataflow-oriented (graphical/visual/iconic) programming languages/tools/expression mediums that are now in the dustbin. Applying icons at the expression level is unproductive, where the real potential productivity gains can only be realized at higher levels of abstractions. Who is your intended developer for this language/tool? It can't be the programmer who is already quite comfortable with scripting and it can't be the 'non-programmer' where the whole idea is to get away from scripting altogether! Sorry for being so harsh, but you really should do more research before expending this coding effort.

I'm afraid I must echo this sentiment. The middle ground is very well covered and the audience seems smaller than what might be available were the tool not reliant on scripting at all. As a very visual person myself, I find the idea of building blocks attractive but not the coding. I've done work in Visual Basic, Delphi, Visual C++ (which is barely visual IMO) as well as SynthEdit, Synth Maker & Reaktor (& I've grimaced at Max/MSP's ugly as sin development environment and ran back to Reaktor, where I stood a chance of using the tool at all). In all cases I quickly felt my weakness in classic programming/math abilities a detriment to doing anything actually inventive. Modular, visual development tools are always interesting to me, but they seem never to get to that ideal code-less state. So it's just more of the same.

Tzarls · Post by **Tzarls** » Fri Jun 01, 2012 5:19 am

Sandy Klausner wrote:Who is your intended developer for this language/tool?

Well.... of course, me!

I started programming this tool because I felt I needed a tool like this. I know there are many many graphical tools like this - I've also used some of them - Reaktor, Synthmaker.... tried Synthedit a couple of times but I didn't like it too much. To be fair I didn't gave it a real chance... And I know about Usine, Buzz Machines (which AFAIK has been recently resurrected), PD and some now defunct projects, but my main app was Synthmaker. And more than once I found myself thinking "man, I'd like to be able to type "out = in1 + in2 * (in3 + 3.1416)" instead of wiring dozens of small green boxes for such a simple operation".

Sandy Klausner wrote:It can't be the programmer who is already quite comfortable with scripting...

Why not? Some programmers use Javascript because they like it, some others like Ruby and use it to prototype... and some would like to have the ability to script using a language they are familiar with - C++.

Sandy Klausner wrote:...and it can't be the 'non-programmer' where the whole idea is to get away from scripting altogether!

Unless the 'non-programmer' actually wants to become a programmer!

Or if the 'non-programmer' wants to try his luck at audio processing, but is to impatient to go thru all the "learn the language, then learn the IDE, then learn the GUI library, then learn the audio library..... don't forget about concurrency..." Learning a language like C++ and going thru all the "code - compile - test - debug - compile - test again - debug again" cycle can be discouraging for the beginner, specially when all he wants is to build a delay and all he gets is a buggy text-based dungeon&monsters game... In this scenario, Genera is kind of a sandbox, a playground where the 'non-programmer'can safely train himself in the dark arts of C++ (well, something very similar to C++)for audio, with instant results, hopefully making it fun enough so one day he makes the jump to the full compiler-linker-IDE-whatever game with enough experience and knowledge to make it still fun.

Sandy Klausner wrote:Sorry for being so harsh, but you really should do more research before expending this coding effort.

Don't worry, I appreciate your comments even if they're not of the "go for it - pursue your dream" kind. About the coding effort - during the time I've been working on this app I've learnt so much that it has been time well spent, so I guess I'll just go on. (Probably until my wife decides it's been enough of these little boxes that make no money for us!).

marvotron · Post by **marvotron** » Fri Jun 01, 2012 8:23 am

Im really interested to see where this goes, i've yet to find a tool in this realm that really fits with me.

Reaktor : no coding.
Max/MSP : coding feels clunky and I always manage to crash it.
Synthmaker : only dsp coding, no scripting and the UI system is unpleasant (to me)
etc..

Im a programmer, I like programming, but I also like the component model and just wiring boxes together but nothing has really hit the sweet spot for me.

Are the VM and language custom built? Can you give more details about the language please

Jace-BeOS · Post by **Jace-BeOS** » Fri Jun 01, 2012 11:06 am

This non-programmer doesn't want to become a programmer

Jace-BeOS · Post by **Jace-BeOS** » Fri Jun 01, 2012 11:18 am

That said, if you're building it for yourself, what you want it to be is really all that matters. But people like me (few in number?) will continue to see visual development tools with an envious eye

wishing that they were truly code-less affairs. Reaktor may be code-free (core cells?), but the lack of a top level abstraction layer of real-world simplicity still leaves people like me at a disadvantage. Applied Acoustics Tassman is more simplified modules for real world objects but has a really lousy environment and still has great amounts of archaic structural requirements just to do simple things. IMO, the environment should allow any user (not just a formally trained or mathematically expert user) to create a process from building blocks and natural language. Every time someone claims to have made such a thing, it's still a programmer's or mathematician's playpen. Maybe computer technology simply isn't advanced enough for that. Maybe artificial intelligence is an important step there. To be able to tell a computer what you wish to accomplish and have the AI work out the underlying mechanics.

I'll shut up now.

Sandy Klausner · Post by **Sandy Klausner** » Fri Jun 01, 2012 12:28 pm

One of my Google alerts brought your community to my attention because of the discussion on graphical programming. It was actually news to me that there was even a forum for open standard audio plug-ins! This said, I actually am one of the leading proponents of applying visual computing to software engineering in a very fundamental way. The Cubicon architecture is quite mature and I can assure you that the future for software engineering will not 'look' like current 'dead' text expressions. For a glimpse of the future, go to www.coretalk.net. Even though the web page speaks to the emerging Internet of Things, Cubicon is a very wide spectrum technology and will certainly meet all the necessary requirements for a true plug-and-play ecosystem for open standard audio software plug-ins.

Tzarls · Post by **Tzarls** » Fri Jun 01, 2012 2:51 pm

marvotron wrote: Are the VM and language custom built? Can you give more details about the language please

I wouldn't know where to start if I were to build a custom VM...

I'm using a scripting library called Angelscript together with a JIT compiler specifically created for it. Angelscript uses a syntax very similar to that of C++, and it lets me expose classes and functions from the main app in a very simple manner. So, for example, if my app has some function to find out the current sample rate, I can expose that function to the scripter, so anyone can have access to its functionality.

Jace-BeOS wrote:...Reaktor may be code-free (core cells?), but the lack of a top level abstraction layer of real-world simplicity still leaves people like me at a disadvantage.... IMO, the environment should allow any user (not just a formally trained or mathematically expert user) to create a process from building blocks and natural language. Every time someone claims to have made such a thing, it's still a programmer's or mathematician's playpen...

marvotron wrote:... i've yet to find a tool in this realm that really fits with me.

I'm curious... what are the characteristics of you dream graphical programming tool?

marvotron · Post by **marvotron** » Fri Jun 01, 2012 3:14 pm

ah, i've heard of AngelScript because of the game 'Warsow'

http://www.warsow.net/

not used it yet though.

Alatar · Post by **Alatar** » Sun Jun 03, 2012 1:42 pm

Jace-BeOS wrote:This non-programmer doesn't want to become a programmer

We were all "non-programmers" once

pinbot · Post by **pinbot** » Sun Jun 03, 2012 9:16 pm

this non programmer wants to BE A PROGRAMMER!

Tzarls · Post by **Tzarls** » Tue Jun 05, 2012 8:31 pm

pinbot wrote:this non programmer wants to BE A PROGRAMMER!

Great! Then I have one more reason to go on!

camsr · Post by **camsr** » Wed Jun 06, 2012 9:36 pm

Don't be critical if your domain isn't DSP. Low level functions are absolutely paramount here. And they go hand in hand with any higher form of abstraction.

Attic · Post by **Attic** » Wed Jun 13, 2012 2:07 pm

[quote="you really should do more research before expending this coding effort.[/quote] I for one am very interested in this. You sound like you think you know it all. Visual Languages like this are much needed.

Sandy Klausner · Post by **Sandy Klausner** » Wed Jun 13, 2012 2:26 pm

You sound like you think you know it all.

Considering that I have logged over 80,000 hours in applying visual computing for computer language architecture does provide unique insight. My expertise is not in audio processing per say, but architecture at this level of abstraction is quite domain independent. I was just offering input from a road well-travelled. Sort of like been there, done that ...

New graphical programming system in the works....