something to extend minibrute

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Hello,

I am just getting into hardware synths and looking for some advice on my first steps. I decided to start with an Auturia Minibrute, it is layed out well and will help me break away from preset tweaking I've become accustomed to with soft synths. It also has cv I can use to expand. I have some extra money that can be used now on a modest synth to go with the minibrute so I would like to hear from some who have more experience with building/combining synths. My first choice is a Waldorf Pulse 2, this is almost strictly because I really like the sound, and the paraphonic feature is good too. But the Pulse 2 does not appear to have the connectivity from a cv standpoint to do modulation routing with the minibrute (again, I am new to this so if I'm wrong please let me know). So I've looked at some small modular and semi-modular systems as an alternative. I am liking the Pittsburgh Modular System 10, it's is priced good and geared towards someone like me who is starting out in the modular arena.

I can only get one now, is it better to go with the sound that I like now in the Waldorf Pulse 2 and sacrifice some of the fun routing possibilities with my Minibrute? Or go with something like the Pittsburgh Modular System 10 and learn more about modular synthesis (which may prove to be more creative or frustrating because it will take more time to hone in on my sounds).

I honestly can go either way, I fully understand that the choice is very subjective based on what my needs are. Just looking for some of your experiences, I want my first steps to be rewarding. I tend to be picky about my equipment, bang for the buck is important and I always go for unique things and hold onto them. My knowledge is lacking a bit here so hoping to find some help.

The music I write is somewhat heavy not totally synths, kinda cross between older Nine Inch Nails and Tool with a twist of trance and DnB.

(If it comes up, yes... I would love to have all of them... just isn't gonna happen right now... so it's the Minibute + a Pulse 2 or something like a Pittsburgh Modular System 10).

Thanks

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IMNSHO, you should go for the small modular. If there's one effect that's fairly easy to clone with plugins + modular, it's the paraphonic synth sound because it is nothing more than an existing polyphonic sound fed into a monophonic filter/modulation chain. The pulse is a DCO based synth so you're not going to get that great two VCO beating that you'll get if you add a small modular to your setup.

So you could take your favorite plugin, or frankly, rompler, and feed it into your small modular with the same midi signal driving both synths so that you can modulate your filter from an envelope triggered from note-on messages, and boom, instant paraphonic sound with the power of a modular. For best effect, choose sounds on your driving synth that don't have (short/decaying) amplitude envelopes, e.g. try an organ sound. If I'm not mistaken, you can do this now with your arturia, try it out, see if you really like the paraphonic sound, or you are perhaps lured into thinking that it's a poor mans polyphonic analog. It can be fun in certain settings, but it's definitely and "effect" and noticeably different from a true polyphonic sound.

Other famous, or not so famous, paraphonics include the Radio Shack MG-1, the Korg Poly-800, and the Siel DK-80.

I know that a lot of people like the pulse, I'm not impressed, but I'm absurdly picky and own/have owned much better synths in terms of mono and poly sounds.

I will say this, in my experience, menu/panel driven synths, like the pulse, the ESQ-1, the Matrix-12, the Microwave XT, etc, feel more like programming a plugin than they do programing a modular or a knob/function mono. My point is, if you want to get away from preset hunting, I don't think that the pulse will help you anywhere near as much as the small modular.

BTW: The new arturia synths are fantastic. I would really like to see Arturia come out with an expanded two oscillator semi-modular variant.

YMMV.
Last edited by ghettosynth on Wed Apr 23, 2014 1:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

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CV/Gate doesn't allow you to do any modulation. It is entirely for sending monophonic pitch and note on / off and nothing more.

In synthesizers which depend upon trigger detection from the CV input you can't even apply vibrato or glide without disabling some features.

You can quickly pulse the gate off and back on to get a "retrigger" effect of the envelope, but in most cases this will cause the LFO delay to restart. So beyond sending simple non-modulated notes you can't accomplish anything with CV/Gate without a trade-off.

The one thing you can do of course is "micro-tuning", but MIDI can do this with the pitch bend in most cases anyway. Newer RPN supporting devices can also "micro-tune" without using the pitch bend.

I see the mini-brute doesn't have a CV input, but has separate inputs direct to pitch/cutoff/gain. So you can't apply glide to the inputs or generate any triggers that way. Of course not since it doesn't have those sorts of features. You'll find without modifications, most stand-alone analogs will usually have trouble with anything more than what they're designed to do themselves.

If you want to do any more complicated modulation than what is also possible with the built in MIDI->CV/Gate interfaces you'll probably find yourself just going full modular. There will always be limitations even with certain modules, but those will tend to be less than with stand-alone synthesizers.

With modern MIDI based stand-alone synths it is far easier to do everything from your DAW.
Free plug-ins for Windows, MacOS and Linux. Xhip Synthesizer v8.0 and Xhip Effects Bundle v6.7.
The coder's credo: We believe our work is neither clever nor difficult; it is done because we thought it would be easy.
Work less; get more done.

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Hey, thank you for the fast replies! Your comments are great, I didn't relate the fact that the Pulse 2 has presets (I would end up diving into those first and would end up never getting into any real design), I'm not too put off my the matrix setup but would like something more traditional to learn with. And it looks like I totally missed the point on the cv/gate, (rookie mistake). But I can chain with it, effectively expand the oscillator numbers for a fuller sound (correct?).

The small modular is looking to be a better option. I can spend time (and not a lot of money) with that and the Minibrute getting my grips on the concepts (small scale), then expand into something truly modular over time.

Recommendations on small modular systems are welcome, I've gravitated to the PittsModular System 10 because it sounded more interesting to my ears and seemed to pack all the basic building blocks of a modular in a semi-modular. Not a lot of starter choices out there, looked at the Doepfer Dark Energy too. I'm not ready to start a eurorack thing (yet...). Don't want to jump in too quick now, the synths are portion of the stuff I am working on. But its an area that I've always admired and wanted to get better at (I'm originally a Bass player). I have been getting some decent results from soft synths and samplers, but I had a chance to record some things with a real analog synth and found it just mixed much better with the Bass/Guitar/Drum tracks. Will still use VSTi's where appropriate, but the Analog sounds are so much fuller/warmer.

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xerogh wrote:Hey, thank you for the fast replies! Your comments are great, I didn't relate the fact that the Pulse 2 has presets (I would end up diving into those first and would end up never getting into any real design), I'm not too put off my the matrix setup but would like something more traditional to learn with. And it looks like I totally missed the point on the cv/gate, (rookie mistake). But I can chain with it, effectively expand the oscillator numbers for a fuller sound (correct?).
Yes, acidose is right in the sense that you can do the same thing with midi, but you will discover interesting things that you wouldn't discover with midi. Of course, even given that there are limitations in how you can link the two synths, having a small semi-modular is interesting by itself.
The small modular is looking to be a better option. I can spend time (and not a lot of money) with that and the Minibrute getting my grips on the concepts (small scale), then expand into something truly modular over time.
You can add a few modules interesting modules in a small rack. The system-10 will get you started with patching and in understanding the limitations first hand. It will always be useful as a voice or a set of simple modules in the future.

This guy is using just a few modules with his.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcsoe6YXTJc

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A semi-modular synthesizer akin to the ms-20 would probably be best to start out with. Considering the potential resale value on these (and the new models) you could most likely upgrade from that to a full modular if you found yourself feeling limited by a semi-modular.

Of course with the ms-, you have to be aware that they used exponential CV for pitch, often referred to as "v/hz" versus "v/oct".

Something else "like" the semi-modular design of the ms- synthesizers though might be what you're looking for. Unfortunately I've never kept up to date with what is on the market and never been particularly interested in buying new gear myself.

So all I can say is, sounds like you're headed in the right direction at least. Spend some time maybe thinking about the sorts of configurations you use most often in your music and see if you can pick out a "core" set of features that you absolutely need. That'll help to narrow things down, or at least make you more comfortable selecting the synthesizers that include those features.

Another thing to note now though as I think about it a little more is that you may at some point start to be extremely irritated (if you're anything like myself) with all the keyboards hanging around off everything. Having one or two great controller keyboards is much better in a studio situation than having to switch between many different interfaces.

On the other hand, it can be very cool to pull out one little synthesizer like a ms-10 and play it solo. This allows you to really focus on what you're doing and can be very enjoyable and productive, assuming it works correctly. (Always something to keep in mind with old used analog gear - it breaks.)

So it is really difficult to come up with a definitive answer, these things are all up to you and depend upon your personal preferences.
Free plug-ins for Windows, MacOS and Linux. Xhip Synthesizer v8.0 and Xhip Effects Bundle v6.7.
The coder's credo: We believe our work is neither clever nor difficult; it is done because we thought it would be easy.
Work less; get more done.

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Hey! Didn't have time to read your whole post, but I just wanted to let you know that I think they make pills for that!

:tu:

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xerogh wrote: Recommendations on small modular systems are welcome, I've gravitated to the PittsModular System 10 because it sounded more interesting to my ears and seemed to pack all the basic building blocks of a modular in a semi-modular. Not a lot of starter choices out there, looked at the Doepfer Dark Energy too. I'm not ready to start a eurorack thing (yet...). Don't want to jump in too quick now, the synths are portion of the stuff I am working on.
The problem with "starter" modulars is that, because they are modular, they require a lot of hardware to support modularity. The reason that this a problem is because it's quite easy to get a lot of cost invested in the system before you even add your first module. Just the basic case and power supply willy easily eat up several hundreds of dollars.

Systems like the System 10 and the Dark Energy avoid this to some extent by limiting the cost of those components to the scope of a small system and simplifying some of the hardware.

I agree with acidose that the MS-20 is probably going to give you more bang for your buck, but, at the same time, it's another closed system with different cv pitch standard, so the better value is somewhat short lived.

The System 10 is standard eurorack modules in an inexpensive case. If you add up the module costs it's really quite a discount to buy it as a system. I don't see any point in trying to piece it together. The dark energy, on the other hand, isn't a set of modules, it's a complete unit.

So, you could start with the System 10 with the understanding that your very next purchase to expand your modular will be something like a Cell 96. You could then move the modules in the System 10 to the larger case and add modules that take you where you want to go with it one at a time.

Frankly, if you want an expandable system, I'd just order the System-10, the larger Cell 96 case, and then sell the small case the that the System-10 comes in, it will cost you less than piecing together a System 10 with the larger case.

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My first post on this forum and everyone has been a big help, I really needed to bounce some ideas before diving in so thank you for the feedback.

First off for stillshaded: I tried those pills... didn't work, just ended up growing hair in weird places...

In regards to the MS-20, I like Korgs and I looked at one of those this past weekend at a local store, sounded good but felt cheap, at least the keys did. And apologies for not mentioning this, there's not a whole lot of space in my studio setup. I would struggle to find a good spot for an MS-20, small Modules or rack units will work much better for me.

I have a very nice midi controller keyboard and will have a small keyboard with the Minibrute so I'm covered for now from a controller standpoint.

Didn't realize I could pull the modules out of the System 10 and put them into a larger case, that's a real plus! Maybe not out of the gate but it certainly allows me to expand and still keep them active if/when I go to a eurorack setup (it will just be a matter of time before I'm itching to expand).

Bill.

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Hi Xerogh,

I am in almost the exact same position as you. I have an Arturia Minibrute (which I love, but am still learning how to program), and have been thinking about adding a Pittsburgh Modular unit. As attractive as the System 10 looks, I think I have concluded that (knowing me) the itch to expand will not be easy to resist. Thus, I have decided to save the money I would have put toward the System 10 in the hopes of saving for the full blown Foundation 3 in a couple of years while I really learn the Minibrute. The System 10 does seem like a good value, but I reason that even if I buy the System 10 and the larger rack, by the time I fill it with other modules (which with my GAS would probably not take long) I think I probably would have been better off just getting the Foundation.

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ghettosynth wrote:
The problem with "starter" modulars is that, because they are modular, they require a lot of hardware to support modularity. The reason that this a problem is because it's quite easy to get a lot of cost invested in the system before you even add your first module. Just the basic case and power supply willy easily eat up several hundreds of dollars.
that doesn't have to be true anymore.

the tiptop audio happy ending kit is $150 and is a 3u rack with power and rails. all it needs is modules. there are other low cost case options out there and more are showing up all the time. it's really the one thing i think that turns people off.. having to buy a case and power and figure out how to connect it all.

***for transparency sake i work at the muffwiggler.com synth shop.

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Get the MiniBrute, you wont regret it 8)

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I have a Minibrute and MFB Nanozwerg, and I'm using the Nano as a synth expander voice, giving it an extra waveform generator, LFO, envelope, multimode filter, etc. There are enough CV ins and outs on each to let you play around with the possibilities, plus the Brute has that extra channel in the oscillator section which is perfect.

Only problem is there's nowhere in my room to really set them up next to eachother :hihi:

Another shortcoming: Taking the LFO out of one synth and into the other, doesn't seem there's away to scale it's amplitude. LOOKS LIKE I NEED TO BUY MORE GADGETS :hihi:. See, this is where they get you. And I've only just started with modular and am already drowning in leads. Doesn't stop me having fun though :party:

Example:

http://soundcloud.com/sendy/modular-analog-bass
http://sendy.bandcamp.com/releases < My new album at Bandcamp! Now pay what you like!

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I'd definitely go for a small eurorack case with a digital OSC like the MI Braids, and some effects modules like the ones Audio Damage offers. That should keep you busy!

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