u-he view on vcv

[chk071]

U-he started out with freeware as well. If you'd ask me what freeware is in most cases, though, i'd have to say, free advertising for commercial software. The only thing remotely free, and close to the paid deal is Synth1. Simply because the developer never really wanted anything for it, and, i am not aware of any payware audio stuff written by him either.

Anyway, i didn't quite get the drastic reaction either, but, maybe he knows something we don't, i don't know. At the very least, i think everyone working his a** off should get a fair deal for his work. I only took a quick glance into programming, it's a lot of hard brainwork, and i can only imagine what an effort it is to develop a software or hardware synth. I don't get VCVR's business model. Doesn't really seem profitable at all to me.

[experimental.crow]

i will patiently wait for gentleclockdivider to start his own company ,
in order to best fulfill his most reasonable requests ...

[yellowmix]

You’re right, of course - he doesn’t have to like the concept nor support it. But how would you feel if your work was compared to an illegal file sharing platform that is credited with destroying the music industry, at least the ability for that industry to generate sustainable, living wages?

Then that's between the developers, not the consumers.

The analogy is open to interpretation but I don't think the point was about Napster's legality but how it helped transform the music industry into a state where people expect music for free. The industry has responded with free streaming (that is majority weighted for the charts), artists now primarily rely on concert and merchandise revenue, but how sustainable is this? The value of music recordings has crashed.

The parallels to the plugin industry are obvious.

Asking a developer to contribute to their own demise is a losing proposition.

[chk071]

The analogy is open to interpretation but I don't think the point was about Napster's legality but how it helped transform the music industry into a state where people expect music for free. The industry has responded with free streaming (that is majority weighted for the charts), artists now primarily rely on concert and merchandise revenue, but how sustainable is this? The value of music recordings has crashed.

*nods in agreement*

[perpetual3]

Deleted: responding with quote.

[perpetual3]

But that’s not the point - VCV modules don’t HAVE to be free. You can sell modules for VCV.

See other Urs' post I linked. He doesn't see the revenue stream there compared to what the work involved would entail. It's a valid point, besides not liking the system, and especially after being burned on Rack Extensions beforehand.

Please see my previous post. I acknowledge this point. But Urs did not make this argument, which is in the OP, initially.

[perpetual3]

You’re right, of course - he doesn’t have to like the concept nor support it. But how would you feel if your work was compared to an illegal file sharing platform that is credited with destroying the music industry, at least the ability for that industry to generate sustainable, living wages?

Then that's between the developers, not the consumers.

The analogy is open to interpretation but I don't think the point was about Napster's legality but how it helped transform the music industry into a state where people expect music for free. The industry has responded with free streaming (that is majority weighted for the charts), artists now primarily rely on concert and merchandise revenue, but how sustainable is this? The value of music recordings has crashed.

The parallels to the plugin industry are obvious.

Asking a developer to contribute to their own demise is a losing proposition.

It’s a faulty analogy, and the parallels are superficial. Free plugins have not caused the payware market to crash. And VCVR will not cause the Eurorack market to be devalued the same way that payware has not caused the hardware market to collapse - indeed we’ve seen the exact opposite, especially with analog synthesizers.

Again, read my previous comments, instead of quoting this one in isolation. I’ve addressed and acknowledged the fact that U-he may not feel that this is a viable source of revenue. But this point isn’t the issue. This issue is in Urs’ initial response that VCVR is the Napster of Eurorack. The reason why Napster was illegal is because it circumvented payment for IP. If it was legal, it would have been the first iTunes, and wouldn’t have created such a terrible problem. The Napster of plugins is BitTorrent.

[EvilDragon]

Except there are perfectly legitimate usages of torrents...

[Urs]

My initial statement was quite tongue in cheek (but I agree with yellowmix' analysis). Seems to resonate, so maybe it wasn't too far off. I usually don't think much about it, but I can't have anyone come in and tell me how much time and passion has gone in to the project. As if that was anything unusual.

Anyhow, asking us for VCV modules feels a little bit like in 1998 when some Apache guy asked a Microsoft engineer from the Enterprise Server team to contribute the load balancing module. Ok, I made that one up

[perpetual3]

Except there are perfectly legitimate usages of torrents...

I didn’t say that, and I’ve read your posts enough times over the years to know that your smart enough to know I didn’t say that. I said the Napster of plugins is bit torrent, in the sense that, like Napster, bit torrent permits the illegal distribution of plugins that circumvent IP protection (cracks) and hence evade payment for the plugins. But I’m pretty sure you knew what I was talking about already.

And despite legitimate uses, I would argue that illegitimate uses still dominate, hence sites like the Pirate Bay being in the news for years, most recently being shut down for several days, the seizure and shut down of other torrent sites.

Peace.

[chk071]

Except there are perfectly legitimate usages of torrents...

Unfortunately about every internet service provider here cuts torrent upload bandwidth, and only very few sites offer Bittorrent download. (I love the general idea, it's a great way to actually save bandwidth for downloads)

But, back to topic.

[EvilDragon]

Well, what can I say, that's pretty stupid. OTOH, if it's just torrent uploads but not downloads, they're half-assing it (preventing seeds but still allowing downloading... not sure I see any purpose in that).

UVI for example has official torrents for downloading bigger sample libraries that they sell. I find that great.

[perpetual3]

My initial statement was quite tongue in cheek (but I agree with yellowmix' analysis). Seems to resonate, so maybe it wasn't too far off. I usually don't think much about it, but I can't have anyone come in and tell me how much time and passion has gone in to the project. As if that was anything unusual.

Anyhow, asking us for VCV modules feels a little bit like in 1998 when some Apache guy asked a Microsoft engineer from the Enterprise Server team to contribute the load balancing module. Ok, I made that one up

Hence why I said I gave you the benefit of the doubt in my very first post on this matter, but I don’t agree with yellowmix analysis. Free plugins will not contribute to the demise of pay plugins in the way that illegal mp3 sharing did to the music industry.

At the same time, if you don’t feel it’s a viable revenue stream for you, if you feel that VCV is a competitor to Bazille and hence you don’t want to support it, that’s absolutely reasonable.

Peace.

[Urs]

Peace.

Yes please.

I have more insights on the topic. One is, my company owns more Eurorack modules than you'd ever hope to stuff into a single instance of VCVR. Yet, I build very small racks to make music, 20-30 modules max. I very much come from a less-is-more mindset. Therefore, software - or synthesizers in general - which are boundless do not do much for me. I think they promote a lazier angle to production than challenging systems.

Example given ("Butter bei die Fische" as a German saying goes), here's a rack I performed which has only two oscillators, two filters and Rings as sound sources, plus drums from Peaks (and a spring reverb). There are only 2 sequencers with 4 steps each (!) for sequencing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCFXq3QzxmA

The actual layout is https://www.modulargrid.net/e/racks/view/487823 plus the Vermona Retroverb.

I'm convinced that this style of modular synthesis is difficult to cultivate if the next module is just a click away. And - yep, I'll say it - I love the tactile experience with this kind of hardware.

[perpetual3]

Peace.

Yes please.

I have more insights on the topic. One is, my company owns more Eurorack modules than you'd ever hope to stuff into a single instance of VCVR. Yet, I build very small racks to make music, 20-30 modules max. I very much come from a less-is-more mindset. Therefore, software - or synthesizers in general - which are boundless do not do much for me. I think they promote a lazier angle to production than challenging systems.

Example given ("Butter bei die Fische" as a German saying goes), here's a rack I performed which has only two oscillators, two filters and Rings as sound sources, plus drums from Peaks (and a spring reverb). There are only 2 sequencers with 4 steps each (!) for sequencing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCFXq3QzxmA

The actual layout is https://www.modulargrid.net/e/racks/view/487823 plus the Vermona Retroverb.

I'm convinced that this style of modular synthesis is difficult to cultivate if the next module is just a click away. And - yep, I'll say it - I love the tactile experience with this kind of hardware.

Well, I can’t afford even a small Eurorack system, so Software is the closest I can get at the moment. And that tactile feel you describe is exactly why I love working with my lone remaining hardware synthesizer, and why I doubt VCVR will ever devalue hardware Eurorack. Working with our body, and by extension, our hands is a very primal behavior that produces a different, additional pleasure to creating music.

I use Reaktor, VCV, and Softube Modular and I agree with you. I end up making “small” synths and trying to maximizing what I can produce using all the available features of the modules.