Bitwig

sc0tt · Post by **sc0tt** » Mon Aug 25, 2014 5:23 pm

Thanks Tom,

Appreciate your reply. I did do a search but way too much has been written about latency and I gave up looking.

I am unfamiliar with the plugin you are describing because I have never had to use one in Live or Logic. I will give it a shot as a temporary bandaid. Thanks for that. I guess Deamau5 isn't up on that, which is surprising.
Is this simple functionality going to be built in, in the near future?

ThomasHelzle · Post by **ThomasHelzle** » Mon Aug 25, 2014 6:27 pm

Yes, this is meant as a temporary workaround of course, but basically it does exactly what such a setting would do. I was even able to enable and disable the latency by enabling and disabling the device if I remember correctly, but it's a while and I could be wrong.
I never heard of such plugins before either, but tried a google search and found several back then.

I found the link: http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... 0#p5716967

This was a discussion about it: http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... 4#p5719494

May make sense to search the web further - maybe something new came up since then - as I said, I can no longer verify it here.

And Yes, it will come, but I can't say when.
At least vacation time is over in germany...

Cheers,

Tom

LLCoolJeans · Post by **LLCoolJeans** » Mon Aug 25, 2014 9:00 pm

I agree with him about the obsession with plugins. Very materialistic. Most people don't realize how good the built in stuff of their daws is because people on forums aren't shouting about them instead of making music with them.

Ogopogo · Post by **Ogopogo** » Mon Aug 25, 2014 9:48 pm

^He said hardware is better than plugs, and in part of the video that I didn't transcribe he was talking about how the oscs for his modular cost 4k. There's at least 100,000 worth of equipment in his studio, maybe 2. So he's not really coming from the "Stop whining about gear and just make music" camp.

Ogopogo · Post by **Ogopogo** » Mon Aug 25, 2014 9:48 pm

double post

sc0tt · Post by **sc0tt** » Mon Aug 25, 2014 11:14 pm

Tom,

Thank you for the detailed and thoughtful reply.

Scott

owensands · Post by **owensands** » Tue Aug 26, 2014 3:21 pm

I run at 128 buffer size and all my recordings of hardware ARE very close to the grid. Im talking within 1/512 - 1/1024th note. Time code and midi clips too. So far it has been a much better experience then ableton for me and there isn't even a knob to compensate yet.

I'm gonna have to agree with joel on this line though:

ike f**k i HATE daws today

they're developed around kids who f**king spam VST's and VSTi's all fuckin day

Seems like bitwig hasn't given much of a shit to people who use hardware and mix using a hybrid setup. Why should they though? The market is clearly aimed at the ITB user with 100% VST use and 100% ITB DAW mixing.

Case in point. PDC has not been implemented for external outs??!(confirmed by the BW team too) Really? This is horrible. Soloing external outs DOESN'T work from day 1. 4 months later still broken. Anyone who wants to mix with summing mixers and consoles are going to run into these issues with BW. It sucks and I hope bitwig team will someday give a rats ass about the minority of people who work like this. I will say I am still working like this but I have to exclude all latency inducing plugins on any of my channels because of it. No linear Eqs no MB compressors with look ahead. No limiters with look ahead etc. I still love BW but I really wish the updates were coming faster for things that directly affect me and my workflow. Also the group tracks and VST multi outs still missing is losing tons of business imo. I just hope BW can get it in soon so they can garner some more sales and not push more people away, because I really want this DAW to succeed.

qtheerearranger · Post by **qtheerearranger** » Wed Aug 27, 2014 4:51 am

Owensands,

I agree with your statement however, I think a DAW company SHOULD prioritize anything that legitimizes themselves as a professional DAW. That way you have professionals flock to the product, you see them on youtube using the DAW and people ask what is my favorite artist using? I want to make music I should get that software. To get those professionals to use that software to put those videos online for free advertising, they have to appeal to everything a professional does. A few improvements to this DAW and get it infront of Trent Reznor, I bet he'd be on it. As with MANY professionals.

TristanMendoza · Post by **TristanMendoza** » Thu Aug 28, 2014 5:15 am

I agree but disagree that DAWs are developed around kids who spam VSTs all day. I love deadmau5 and everything, Im a huge fan but when he says stuff like that I always disagree. How can "kids" afford all the nice hardware he has? Even some basic hardware is pricey. Honestly its not even really that, its the fact that everyone is using VST so thats why companies support them as much as possible, it'd be dumb to start off supporting hardware better than software in this day and age. The reason Cubase or Reason or Pro Tools or whatever has really good support for hardware is because when those programs came out thats all that was around was hardware. Bitwig is the newest DAW, a version 1.0 in a digital age, you can't expect the hardware stuff to be TOP priority. I dont know

thats what I think lol Im just thinking out loud here, not trying to start a soft/hardware war or any stuff like that

blouaap · Post by **blouaap** » Thu Aug 28, 2014 8:04 am

TristanMendoza wrote:I agree but disagree that DAWs are developed around kids who spam VSTs all day. I love deadmau5 and everything, Im a huge fan but when he says stuff like that I always disagree. How can "kids" afford all the nice hardware he has? Even some basic hardware is pricey. Honestly its not even really that, its the fact that everyone is using VST so thats why companies support them as much as possible, it'd be dumb to start off supporting hardware better than software in this day and age. The reason Cubase or Reason or Pro Tools or whatever has really good support for hardware is because when those programs came out thats all that was around was hardware. Bitwig is the newest DAW, a version 1.0 in a digital age, you can't expect the hardware stuff to be TOP priority. I dont know thats what I think lol Im just thinking out loud here, not trying to start a soft/hardware war or any stuff like that

Truest words.

I just think Joel lashes out a bit in the heat of the moment anyways, like I do with BW a lot of the time as well. I Bounced many pieces of different pieces I had, then this one piano piece would render completely wrong, no matter what I did, I couldn't even record the piece. There is still a lot of frustration under the hood of BW. Not just in the hardware sense.

owensands · Post by **owensands** » Fri Aug 29, 2014 4:39 am

qtheerearranger wrote:Owensands,

I agree with your statement however, I think a DAW company SHOULD prioritize anything that legitimizes themselves as a professional DAW. That way you have professionals flock to the product, you see them on youtube using the DAW and people ask what is my favorite artist using? I want to make music I should get that software. To get those professionals to use that software to put those videos online for free advertising, they have to appeal to everything a professional does. A few improvements to this DAW and get it infront of Trent Reznor, I bet he'd be on it. As with MANY professionals.

I agree but you have to put yourself in their shoes. Where is the best potential market? Kids and people who use VSTS. Its the majority of workflows these days. Its just a simple fact. So they get there backing by their investors and they aim there first. Make the money for the investors and add the stuff for the minority later. Its a crapshoot trying to win the business of a big name artist with all hardware whereas a DAW aimed at ITB VST users is sure cash from the gate. I don't think what they did is wrong or surprises me in the least I am just hoping that eventually the love trickles down to the hardware user and it becomes the full fledged amazing DAW that it can be. Really for me its just the hybrid mixing issues and I have workarounds and am consistently finishing tracks. All my hardware recording is very solid for me with BW. I honestly don't understand how the guy running a 64ms buffer size is getting a 1/8 note recording latency. Nor do I understand how Joel was having such an issue either with all that expensive shit and his knowledge. The first thing I noticed about bitwig was how good my hardware integration was with recording it from midi time code and midi clips. I guess others are having a lot of issues though. *shrug*

ThomasHelzle · Post by **ThomasHelzle** » Fri Aug 29, 2014 10:39 am

Great post owen! It's good to see things being put in some perspective.

Yeah, I think there is a lot of drama in the whole thing that everybody lives through every now and then with any kind of software (I know I have), especially when it's new, but most people won't put it on youtube and nobody would watch movies of the average joe sitting in front of a computer chatting - I didn't even know what I was supposed to look at when I got the link.

I also think the perception of hardware being especially "underloved" isn't accurate: There are people having problems with VSTs too, so it's not as if some areas were "willingly neglected to make money".
Developers are human too and have their own views on how certain things should work, so it's often much simpler than it may seem.

In the end it all boils down to time and how complex the whole area and market is. Only since I work with Bitwig I realize how extremely fragmented the music world is. Hundreds of workflows and specialities - and this is a good thing, don't get me wrong there - but at the same time it makes it virtually impossible to cater to each and every need at once, from the experimental VJ to the bedroom EDM producer to the dance performer with an Eigenharp to the DJ to the studio engineer...

So: I just recently made sure that everybody at Bitwig is aware that this area needs some serious looking in to.
The things missing will come over time, my suggestions were well received and I think things will work out nicely.

Cheers,

Tom

lem8r · Post by **lem8r** » Fri Aug 29, 2014 11:32 am

Even if hardware PDC will be implemented I still will be checking phase of my tracks manually with my eyes and ears as I always do.

thetechnobear · Post by **thetechnobear** » Fri Aug 29, 2014 12:23 pm

I think Thomas is so right…

I really like some of Bitwig concepts, but personally, I have to just keep a watching eye on Bitwig, as it doesn't support multi channel midi (for my eigenharp

) , or proper poly pressure support (it can only route it to other limited parameters).

Its a pity, but I recognize that there are just so many outstanding requests (seems to be a new thread here each day, with a 'absolute must have suggestion list') its going to take BW sometime to get through these, realistically we could be talking years.
(and adding too many features too quickly would create instability/bugs)

After all, other DAWs have been out there for years, and added these things incrementally over the years, and even then all DAWs still have users 'complaining' that X feature is missing and is vital.

Im sure over time, better HW support will come, multi channel midi, rewire (yes we need it ;o) ) … and I'm sure a whole host of things I don't need but others do.

Until then, I keep checking the demos, let BW know what I need,
and wait patiently using the tools I already have… hey who knows those tools are changing too, so its a fun competitive race to watch … can BW catch up.

so good luck BW, I'm waiting and watching

PolaroidThePenguin · Post by **PolaroidThePenguin** » Sat Aug 30, 2014 3:17 am

TristanMendoza wrote:I agree but disagree that DAWs are developed around kids who spam VSTs all day. I love deadmau5 and everything, Im a huge fan but when he says stuff like that I always disagree. How can "kids" afford all the nice hardware he has? Even some basic hardware is pricey. Honestly its not even really that, its the fact that everyone is using VST so thats why companies support them as much as possible, it'd be dumb to start off supporting hardware better than software in this day and age.

That's why you support both. From the beginning. It is just horribly agitating seeing everything going purely towards soft- what he was aiming at, his belief, that it is such a "press play" era, there are masses and masses of people who are just too lazy to incorporate/utilize anything more involved than a damn preset or whatever in their music making. It is not about not being able to afford stuff and let's just for a second forget purely electronic music genre and you realize there is a whole lot more out there than expensive modulars

thus bitwig should address this issues asap. it just makes no sense to have it the way it is at the moment.

On a side note, I should have known better upon purchasing Bitwig myself. It really is a 'modern dance' music software and solely.

Bitwig

KVR Audio

Video of Deadmau5 complaining about bitwig hardware recording