No "ghost" clips??? Am I missing something here?

[Astralp]

Sorry I didn't mean to sound like I'm against the idea, I've used the feature in Cubase a lot in the past, I just wanted to point out the closest thing aside from using clips.

[bolba]

antic604, koalaboy
I know how "ghost" clips work, I didn't ask for explanation
I asked about real-case scenarios, examples on where it's critical for workflow?
Ideally demo/capture from some other user, for example Seamless (FlStudio), Virtual Riot (Cubase / Ableton), Xilent (Bitwig), deadmau5 (Ableton), Armin van buuren (Logic) etc

I really don't understand why there's any objections to it? Don't like/need it, don't use it! If implemented, alias/linked/ghost clips would be created by dragging the clip with added modifiers (say Ctrl+Shift+drag) so your old workflow wouldn't be impacted in any way.

I was using FLStudio before Bitwig and it creates "ghost" clips by deafult.
And you know.... it's such a mess to understand when you have full song ready, which clip is actually unique and which is not. That it's much easier to just copy timeline selection with everything, than update separate patterns (for which Bitwig's/Logic looping is just fine).
It's not only about "hotkeys". You need proper identification of normal/unique clips and instanced/referenced one. All that creates visual clutter.

So not I'm asking about some theoretical "ghost" clips usage but rather about real user cases.


Yes, if you modulate everything and just need to update patterns through 60 minutes of your "modulated" album that's probably a necessary workflow improvement ^_^

[bolba]

*double post, sorry*

[antic604]

I asked about real-case scenarios, examples on where it's critical for workflow?Ideally demo/capture from some other user, for example Seamless (FlStudio), Virtual Riot (Cubase / Ableton), Xilent (Bitwig), deadmau5 (Ableton), Armin van buuren (Logic) etc

It's not critical, just very useful and a time saver. Currently I simply duplicate the clips and if I change one, I'll go & replace all the others with new one manually.

I was using FLStudio before Bitwig and it creates "ghost" clips by deafult. And you know.... it's such a mess to understand when you have full song ready, which clip is actually unique and which is not. That it's much easier to just copy timeline selection with everything, than update separate patterns (for which Bitwig's/Logic looping is just fine). It's not only about "hotkeys". You need proper identification of normal/unique clips and instanced/referenced one. All that creates visual clutter.

Well, your perception seems to be tainted by flawed implementation of the idea FL Studio. Why don't have a look at other DAWs, that did it properly, like Studio One: https://youtu.be/_4klgY7JP8Q

[svervs]

So not I'm asking about some theoretical "ghost" clips usage but rather about real user cases.

Create an audible piece of sound that has recurring musical elements.

It's hard to even start to explain how this is useful.
It's a concept that 'every' pro-application has, in one way or the other. Instances, Pre-Comps, Smart-Objects. I'm sure Word has a functionality like this, ... even your email signature is the same concept.

[antic604]

By the way...

Yes, if you modulate everything and just need to update patterns through 60 minutes of your "modulated" album that's probably a necessary workflow improvement ^_^

...that's pretty low & uncalled for.

[ejgallego]

I'd bet versioned clips are on the roadmap, and indeed they do make sense; be sure to write to support so they update their priority list.

[bolba]

I asked about real-case scenarios, examples on where it's critical for workflow?Ideally demo/capture from some other user, for example Seamless (FlStudio), Virtual Riot (Cubase / Ableton), Xilent (Bitwig), deadmau5 (Ableton), Armin van buuren (Logic) etc

It's not critical, just very useful and a time saver. Currently I simply duplicate the clips and if I change one, I'll go & replace all the others with new one manually.

I was using FLStudio before Bitwig and it creates "ghost" clips by deafult. And you know.... it's such a mess to understand when you have full song ready, which clip is actually unique and which is not. That it's much easier to just copy timeline selection with everything, than update separate patterns (for which Bitwig's/Logic looping is just fine). It's not only about "hotkeys". You need proper identification of normal/unique clips and instanced/referenced one. All that creates visual clutter.

Well, your perception seems to be tainted by flawed implementation of the idea FL Studio. Why don't have a look at other DAWs, that did it properly, like Studio One: https://youtu.be/_4klgY7JP8Q

Seriously, that 8 bars example from the guy who hates Ableton justifies development time spent on ghost clips??
This if perfectly doable with "looping" now.

When he finishes his perfect melody in Studio One and will proceed to real song creation - he will never NEVER use this feature, because when you have at least 3-4 minutes of content you just get lost and will be afraid to change that little clip which is populated through all the song.
Also time spent on all the additional clips organization just doesn't worth it in cases when you completely change idea or doing an experiment. It just easier to overwrite everything than limit yourself to instantiated clips.

That's why I'm asking about real Power User case, not some youtube theoretic.
Virtual Riot changed Cubase (ghost clips) to Ableton and doing okay

Smart-objects in Photoshop is completely different beast, yet, quite limited in a lot of ways. And it makes a bit more sense in image editor to me.
It's like having a song container inside another song.

I'm not against that feature, but proper implementation of it requires much more than couple hotkeys.
I don't want to see same kind of failure as we got with cross-fading.

[llze]

I would prefer to see a nested midi layer when bouncing in place to always be able to revert to that midiclip with two clicks for example.
This would have a higher prio to me personally, when thinking about clips.

[antic604]

I would prefer to see a nested midi layer when bouncing in place to always be able to revert to that midiclip with two clicks for example.
This would have a higher prio to me personally, when thinking about clips.

You can do it in one. Before bouncing, just:
- duplicate the MIDI clip to Clip Launcher slot, OR
- group the track and bounce-in-place the clip - or time selection - at the Group level

Then you can drag the MIDI clip back to replace the audio clip (1st option) or just delete the audio clip on Group track (2nd option) to revert to where you were.

I bet this takes less time than freezing & unfreezing WHOLE track in Ableton, because it doesn't do actual bounce-in-place; it's whole track or nothing.

[llze]

yes i know about these options and they are valid arguments, it's just it would be cleaner to have some meta data (midi information) sitting somehwere hidden when bouncing in place, which can always be reverted to. So freezing single clips basically.

[svervs]

- group the track and bounce-in-place the clip - or time selection - at the Group level
just delete the audio clip on Group track (2nd option) to revert to where you were.

Anyone who's not doing this way is just bitwigging wrong.
Separating the notes from the sound generators is the most natural thing in Bitwig.

[xx JPRacer xx]

If you have a clip that is used in a lot of places and you make some changes to one of them, searching everywhere to find all occurrences and replace them is a big workflow killer. Ghost/alias clip is a really nice feature to have.

[bbreakz]

If you have a clip that is used in a lot of places and you make some changes to one of them, searching everywhere to find all occurrences and replace them is a big workflow killer. Ghost/alias clip is a really nice feature to have.

+1

[Tj Shredder]

If you have a clip that is used in a lot of places and you make some changes to one of them, searching everywhere to find all occurrences and replace them is a big workflow killer. Ghost/alias clip is a really nice feature to have.

It might be a workflow killer for strictly repetitive music, but might also force you to have more variations in your tracks and thus will result in better music... Not at all a bad thing...; - )
I worked with the original UPIC of Iannis Xenakis. In there it was almost impossible to create exact copies, you could only create copies which had some resemblance. This changed the workflow and the way of thinking. A technical limitation, which led to more interesting music...