Best DAW for linnstrument?

[SneakyT]

Why is it that most every DAW conversation turns into a bitch fest about Bitwig or ProTools? There are plenty of great DAWs that work well with MPE. Cubase works well on the Windows side and Logic is great for the Mac side. Reaper seems to work well on either side if you're willing to re-learn things. These are the standard DAWs these days anyways, right? No one really expects ProTools to be on par with other MIDI centric DAWs, do they? They've never done that. Bitwig is pretty new to the game so why is everyone so harsh? I own most of these and use Logic and Reaper pretty exclusively. Reaper is great if you don't mind re-mapping literally everything and don't care about included plugins. I still feel like the pro choices are Logic, Reaper and Cubase. I have zero Issue with Bitwig BTW. They gave me some pretty cool plugins for free with 8-track. At some point they'll get it together with the MPE recording process. We are really early adopters here. Until they do, you have two very affordable options in Logic and Reaper.

[John the Savage]

Why is it that most every DAW conversation turns into a bitch fest about Bitwig or ProTools?

Where's this attitude coming from? It seems to me that you're the one trying to start a "bitch fest".

Up to this point, the rest of us were merely having an objective conversation, as solicited by the OP, about the pros and cons of the MPE implementation in various DAW's.

Cheers!

[SneakyT]

Where's this attitude coming from?

The op asked what DAWs would work well with MPE on Windows. After some suggestions, a whole lot of post after that are discussing how Bitwig implements MPE. This is far from the only thread that this has happened in either. Just gets old how people who are quite upset about how Bitwig implements MPE seem to hijack threads no matter how civil the discussion may be. There are Bitwig threads that people can post in. Either way complaining about it on a Linnstrument forum is probably the least productive way to help [Bitwig] correct the problems in future revisions.

[John the Savage]

Where's this attitude coming from?

The op asked what DAWs would work well with MPE on Windows. After some suggestions, a whole lot of post after that are discussing how Bitwig implements MPE. This is far from the only thread that this has happened in either. Just gets old how people who are quite upset about how Bitwig implements MPE seem to hijack threads no matter how civil the discussion may be. There are Bitwig threads that people can post in. Either way complaining about it on a Linnstrument forum is probably the least productive way to help [Bitwig] correct the problems in future revisions.

Again, after the initial slew of suggestions had been made and briefly discussed, the OP had some specific and otherwise valid questions regarding Bitwig's MPE implementation; and as I see it, those questions were answered in an objective and civil manner. And when you consider that Bitwig comes bundled with the LinnStrument, it seems perfectly sensible to me that people would discuss it here.

Regardless, I wouldn't say Bitwig has monopolized the conversation by any means. Hell, I see at least a half-dozen other DAW's mentioned here, each with their own list of strengths and weaknesses, and plenty of praise for Bitwig to boot. In fact, the only person I see getting "upset" about the matter and "hijacking" the thread is you.

At any rate, this is hardly the busiest forum. I mean, aside from the odd ill-informed question, by no means are we at risk of being overrun by redundant threads or trolls. If anything, I find the conversations here to be refreshingly concise compared to other online spaces. I think we have Roger Linn to thank for that, what with the LinnStrument being so well-designed and all. For the most part, I see a community of relatively humble and accomplished musicians commiserating over the limitations and frustrations of new tech. Your choice of words and cynical tone were simply uncalled for.

Cheers!

[jsterne]

I'm curious how people are assigning Y axis and aftertouch to parameters in the DAW of their choice. I've just spent a few frustrating hours with this in Ableton Live (yes, I know, I just wish it worked better--until the Linnstrument it was my go-to live performance with a computer setup), Logic and MainStage, and Bitwig.

I find if the synth parameters are easily accessible, like in any of the Logic synths or in Ableton Wavetable, it's easy. If I download the demo files for each thing, it works fine. It just goes south when I want to program sounds myself, which is what I want to do.

Let's say I want to use aftertouch to control send level to a reverb on the synth's channel in the DAW, as well as modulation level in the reverb itself (on a different channel). I guess after working with Live for so long, I want to be able to use the Linnstrument's expressive controls to play the DAW and effects plugins as instruments as well, not just the synths.

It seems all of the programs I've tried here want to use MIDI learn, and if I use CC faders, it's no problem. But I can't figure out how to get any of these programs to consistently "learn" aftertouch or the CC messages from Y axis, especially if I'm running channel per note. In Logic, for instance, it gets confused between the note on, velocity and the aftertouch in MIDI learn. It also picks the channel of whatever note is being played, so it only works when channel per note gets back around to that channel. And I don't see a way to manually program it.

If anyone's figured it out in any of these programs, I would love to know (I know Logic pretty well from mixing--never tried to use it for performance before; MainStage I have messed around with but not in a serious way).

Otherwise, I guess I'm back to just using synths where all the parameters are easily assignable within a single plugin (and don't depend on MIDI learn but have some kind of matrix where you can specify aftertouch and cc numbers) and a box of knobs or something for the DAW parameters.

[Roger_Linn]

Unless your synth/DAW’s MIDI learn function can be set to only recognize Control Change messages, MIDI Learn doesn’t really work with LinnStrument because it sends multiple MIDI messages at once. So you need to use the manual assignment modes.

[jsterne]

The problem is a lot of them no longer have manual assignments as far as I can tell -- I don't see an option in Live or Logic to, for instance, manually assign a MIDI CC message to a send on the mixer. I've found a few workarounds but would be curious to hear from others. I have had zero problems as long as I stay within a single instrument that's designed for keyboard control--it's just when I'm trying to do slightly more elaborate things.

[Tj Shredder]

In Bitwig you can do it with a script, in Logic you have the environment to route cc to mixer elements. Beside midi learn you have to dive deeper in most cases, but the options exist in most DAWs....

[jsterne]

Hi TJ,

Mind walking me through how you do it in logic?

Thanks.

[Roger_Linn]

In Logic, I’d suggest using the modulation routings within the synths instead of trying to control mixer functions like reverb. In Logic’s ES2 synth and EXS24 sampler, there’s a modulation routing block in the center with 10 modulation paths, all of which use drop-down menus to select modulation sources (any CC, aftertouch, note number, etc.).

[jsterne]

Thanks Roger. That's what I'm doing now -- the problem is I want more. I have come to think about laptop performance a little differently through years working with Live, which treats most of the parameters in a DAW as potentially performable (to me, this was always it's greatest strength--I realize not everyone starts by turning off quantization in Live...), rather than just as a host for instruments. But as always, there are places where software helps and where it gets in the way (I notice the same issue occurs for people who want to record MIDI rather than audio from performances). Most of our programs just weren't written with MPE in mind and even those that were, like Bitwig, are still figuring it out. I imagine now that it's more of a standard, in a few years, this will be less of an issue.

On the Linnstrument, I've been messing around at home for 6 months but am taking it to band practice for the first time Monday (instrumental originals), where I'll be playing with other people, and so am thinking more "seriously" about how to get it to do what I want it to do in that context.

BTW, I was praising your responsiveness on another forum. I really appreciate how quickly and thoroughly you handle queries on this forum. There are very few people in the industry who do that.

[Roger_Linn]

Thanks for the kind words, jsterne. The forums are fun for me, like having a conversation with friends who share my interest.

Regarding modulation destinations, I see your point but in my view, mixing controllers are better at performing mixer functions and polyphonic expressive musical instruments are better at performing polyphonic expressive musical synthesis functions. If you want to use LinnStrument to additionally control mixer functions, I’d lean toward using the Low Row or CC Faders.

[John the Savage]

I haven't tried this myself, but with regards to the MIDI Learn conundrum, you might try putting one of the splits into "Faders" mode first, then set a couple of the faders to transmit whatever CC messages you want associated with the Y-axis and Pressure controls. Then put your DAW into MIDI Learn mode and touch the faders to establish those links. I mean, it's not like your DAW will know the difference, right?

Anyway, just a thought...

Cheers!

[Tj Shredder]

Hi TJ,
Mind walking me through how you do it in logic?

Walking through might be difficult, as I am a very old noob regarding Logic...
Decades ago, I think it was Logic 3, still Emagic and not Apple, I was a bit into the environment, but switched completely to Max/MSP...
So there is a gap in experience...
But to get started:
https://support.apple.com/kb/PH13245?locale=en_US
Another way to get Midi tackled is to use the scripter plug-in. I made a little scripter to turn non MPE and monophonic plug-ins into MPE polyphonic playable instruments in Mainstage:
https://github.com/TjShredder/Mainstage ... nel-Filter
Its still buggy, I could not get the pitch bend range converted, but its working elsewise...
You could use the same script in Logic...

[jsterne]

Thanks everyone. I really appreciate all the help.

John--I did try your idea but it only works if Linnstrument is running on a single channel in smart MIDI.

TJ -- I didn't know Logic still had this! I just opened it up and I'll see if I can work it out.

In the meantime, and for tonight's experiment with the band, I'm just going to go the easy route and use it with in Live easily mappable software instruments -- Ace and Kontakt. Pitch bend, mod wheel, pressure, and done--and not worry about the rest.

BTW TJ, do you use MainStage live or playing with others? If so, how is it?

I have spent the better part of a decade getting good at Ableton Live, and really like it. Of course like all software it has its limits, but as a way of turning the computer into a giant performance sampler, it's unrivalled. So one option is just to use the Linnstrument in Smart MIDI mode for now so I can stay in Live with its scripting and everything else, and use another controller alongside it for the "perform the DAW" stuff.

But of course MainStage or Logic might be a better choice long term. We'll see.