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egbert
KVRAF
 
3858 posts since 20 Oct, 2001, from my bolthole in the south pacific

Postby egbert; Tue Dec 06, 2016 9:05 pm Re: Thermionik 5 - Emulation Philosophy and Input Trim Tips

musicalwarmth812 wrote:Thanks, but I am aware how amplification and gain stages work. Sure, not all 12AX7's are identical - different brands, NOS, etc. - but maybe you are trying to say a 12AT7, etc., is not a 12AX7.

You lost me with your last paragraph. Thermionik contains two modded JCM800 models, those two amps are not what I am referring to. I am referring to the stock 800 and the blue channel of Psycho C. You put those two amps side by side and A/B, there is no way the 800 has more gain. So even the Stock 800 is essentially modded here, I get it. Still doesn't explain how, at the same input voltage, that stock 800 has more gain than the Psycho C blue channel.

If you have real tube amps, different selections of preamp tubes can change the character considerably - have a look at Doug's Tubes for example - he provides selected tube sets for popular amps and you can also roll your own combinations.

I don't have a lot more to add but I am not sure what your issue is - you are correct that there is not a one to one correspondence between the gain controls and the input level control on these simulated amps and the real amps they are derived from. Is that actually a problem?
musicalwarmth812
KVRer
 
22 posts since 13 May, 2011

Postby musicalwarmth812; Tue Dec 06, 2016 9:28 pm Re: Thermionik 5 - Emulation Philosophy and Input Trim Tips

egbert wrote:
musicalwarmth812 wrote:Thanks, but I am aware how amplification and gain stages work. Sure, not all 12AX7's are identical - different brands, NOS, etc. - but maybe you are trying to say a 12AT7, etc., is not a 12AX7.

You lost me with your last paragraph. Thermionik contains two modded JCM800 models, those two amps are not what I am referring to. I am referring to the stock 800 and the blue channel of Psycho C. You put those two amps side by side and A/B, there is no way the 800 has more gain. So even the Stock 800 is essentially modded here, I get it. Still doesn't explain how, at the same input voltage, that stock 800 has more gain than the Psycho C blue channel.

If you have real tube amps, different selections of preamp tubes can change the character considerably - have a look at Doug's Tubes for example - he provides selected tube sets for popular amps and you can also roll your own combinations.

I don't have a lot more to add but I am not sure what your issue is - you are correct that there is not a one to one correspondence between the gain controls and the input level control on these simulated amps and the real amps they are derived from. Is that actually a problem?


Yep you can change out preamp tubes, and even power tubes. Glad we got that covered.

Sure, the individual amps are not 1:1, I can live with that. What I do not like is these are represented as amp models: would you be taken aback if you plugged into a Fender Twin model and it had more gain than the crunch channel on a 5150 by the same developer, when both amps are set at the same input voltage? I mean, I think there should be some sort of reference line here. Don't get me wrong, the amps are impressive and I will continue to use them, but honestly, yeah, that bothers me.
egbert
KVRAF
 
3858 posts since 20 Oct, 2001, from my bolthole in the south pacific

Postby egbert; Tue Dec 06, 2016 11:21 pm Re: Thermionik 5 - Emulation Philosophy and Input Trim Tips

So to you, it is a bug, to others, it is a feature. To each their own.
musicalwarmth812
KVRer
 
22 posts since 13 May, 2011

Postby musicalwarmth812; Tue Dec 06, 2016 11:54 pm Re: Thermionik 5 - Emulation Philosophy and Input Trim Tips

egbert wrote:So to you, it is a bug, to others, it is a feature. To each their own.


No, a modeled stock JCM800 having more gain than a 5150 III blue channel (once again while they are at the same input voltage settings) is not a feature, it may be a design consideration, but that is not a feature. Again, say you plugged into a Fender Twin and it had more gain than CH 3 on a triple rec. Would you think that was jacked up, or just hey, the way the amps were designed here.

Don't misunderstand me. I wish he would have went the route of just doing 1:1 models, but hey, Thermionik is an awesome product. That being said, I don't mind his individual interpretations of amps, as long as the core of the amp stays faithful to the original (which I believe Shane has accomplished here for the most part) - because if you don't accomplish that, then why even bother modeling?.
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Kazrog
KVRian
 
820 posts since 24 Oct, 2009

Postby Kazrog; Wed Dec 07, 2016 9:51 am Re: Thermionik 5 - Emulation Philosophy and Input Trim Tips

musicalwarmth812 wrote:Thermionik contains two modded JCM800 models, those two amps are not what I am referring to.


Actually, the modded Marshalls that were modeled in Thermionik are not JCM800s, they are the older 70s JMP model. Just to be clear.

The 800 modeled in Thermionik is designed to get a full range of tones, from classic 800 crunch to much heavier. It's all in how you dial it. Most of the people I know with real JCM800s like to get more gain out of them in some way, so the model is built with that in mind.
Shane McFee
CEO/CTO - Kazrog LLC
musicalwarmth812
KVRer
 
22 posts since 13 May, 2011

Postby musicalwarmth812; Wed Dec 07, 2016 10:05 am Re: Thermionik 5 - Emulation Philosophy and Input Trim Tips

Hi Shane, my apologies regarding the modded JMP's. You understand, my problem is ultimately
not with having more gain on the 800 - yeah I agree most would want that - it is the a/b comparison of the two amps I have mentioned. At the end of the day I can great sound out of both of them, and that's what matters.
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Kazrog
KVRian
 
820 posts since 24 Oct, 2009

Postby Kazrog; Wed Dec 07, 2016 10:32 am Re: Thermionik 5 - Emulation Philosophy and Input Trim Tips

musicalwarmth812 wrote:Hi Shane, my apologies regarding the modded JMP's. You understand, my problem is ultimately
not with having more gain on the 800 - yeah I agree most would want that - it is the a/b comparison of the two amps I have mentioned. At the end of the day I can great sound out of both of them, and that's what matters.


I understand that. You're absolutely right about the gain discrepancy, too. However, I'm not likely to change this any time soon. There's much more important stuff to be addressed at the moment. Now, back to work for me... 8)
Shane McFee
CEO/CTO - Kazrog LLC
musicalwarmth812
KVRer
 
22 posts since 13 May, 2011

Postby musicalwarmth812; Thu Dec 08, 2016 10:54 pm Re: Thermionik 5 - Emulation Philosophy and Input Trim Tips

I hear ya man. I would hope that it would be addressed sometime in the future, and that you know,
you do the 50 watt version sometime down the road as well. Many thanks.
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