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andy4trance
KVRist
 
129 posts since 11 Oct, 2012

Postby andy4trance; Sun Dec 18, 2016 1:44 am Kazrog Rack and other wishes

Hi,

For me a rack tool to organize my amp and cabinet combos would be very handy.

Now I use Revalver's interface to mount Thermionic and Recabinet. Their noise gate is very good imo. But this surely has its drawbacks like crashing DAWs.

Such a tool with an imbedded noise gate would be great.

There are huge differences in what amp cab combo works as what is just bad, so a way to flag favourites or filter various ir's for different amps would save time on repeating mistakes

And on the shallow side, personalized (read not tacky) looks of the amps would be a visual bonus. I know that visuals may impact the perception but this is something that works with real amps too, no? :)

Thanks
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Kazrog
KVRian
 
789 posts since 24 Oct, 2009

Postby Kazrog; Sun Dec 18, 2016 1:18 pm Re: Kazrog Rack and other wishes

Noted. I've been thinking more about the Rack idea lately, especially now that I'm branching into FX...
Shane McFee
CEO/CTO - Kazrog LLC
andy4trance
KVRist
 
129 posts since 11 Oct, 2012

Postby andy4trance; Sun Dec 18, 2016 1:30 pm Re: Kazrog Rack and other wishes

Great, thanks.
musicalwarmth812
KVRer
 
22 posts since 13 May, 2011

Postby musicalwarmth812; Mon Dec 19, 2016 6:46 pm Re: Kazrog Rack and other wishes

andy4trance wrote:Hi,

For me a rack tool to organize my amp and cabinet combos would be very handy.

Now I use Revalver's interface to mount Thermionic and Recabinet. Their noise gate is very good imo. But this surely has its drawbacks like crashing DAWs.

Such a tool with an imbedded noise gate would be great.

There are huge differences in what amp cab combo works as what is just bad, so a way to flag favourites or filter various ir's for different amps would save time on repeating mistakes

And on the shallow side, personalized (read not tacky) looks of the amps would be a visual bonus. I know that visuals may impact the perception but this is something that works with real amps too, no? :)

Thanks


Embedded noise gate +1...On that note, if these amps are not a 1:1 re-creation, why have the noise there in the first place?

As far as the visuals, I wouldn't mind a false storefront, as long as it doesn't detract from cpu hit/performance. Otherwise, Thermionik gui is fine with me.
andy4trance
KVRist
 
129 posts since 11 Oct, 2012

Postby andy4trance; Mon Dec 19, 2016 10:32 pm Re: Kazrog Rack and other wishes

I proposed the noisegate inside the rack. If you want to stay 100% genuine, fine,you could use separately the amp as today or just switch the gate off.
Anyway it's not like we have it already....
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EvilDragon
KVRAF
 
14136 posts since 6 Jan, 2009, from Croatia

Postby EvilDragon; Tue Dec 20, 2016 12:35 am Re: Kazrog Rack and other wishes

musicalwarmth812 wrote:On that note, if these amps are not a 1:1 re-creation, why have the noise there in the first place?


Because you cannot get away without it when you increase gain so many times. It will always amplify the noise part of the signal you're inputting, which is always present.
musicalwarmth812
KVRer
 
22 posts since 13 May, 2011

Postby musicalwarmth812; Wed Dec 21, 2016 6:53 pm Re: Kazrog Rack and other wishes

EvilDragon wrote:
musicalwarmth812 wrote:On that note, if these amps are not a 1:1 re-creation, why have the noise there in the first place?


Because you cannot get away without it when you increase gain so many times. It will always amplify the noise part of the signal you're inputting, which is always present.


I wasn't asking for a scientific explanation, but if you want to go that route, that isn't going to fly completely because you're in the digital domain now - reasons why Shane is able to implement more gain in the circuit, why he's able to add a bright switch, etc. I'm referring to design considerations, take Satch's amps that omit reverb in favor of a noise gate, the list could go on and on. If you take a look at some of his ethos is improving the usable range of some amplifiers, whether that be gain extension, or extension of the clean channel - again - my take is when is amplifier noise desirable? I'd say kill it from the get go.
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EvilDragon
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14136 posts since 6 Jan, 2009, from Croatia

Postby EvilDragon; Wed Dec 21, 2016 11:55 pm Re: Kazrog Rack and other wishes

Yes but you are NOT completely in the digital domain now. You still have analog things that HAVE some noise in them: the guitar pickups, the output jack, the cable, the audio interface. Digital domain can only amplify all that noise by whatever gain factor (well, pretty much the same thing that your analog amp will also do). Sure it can remove it by using FFT filtering, but that a) eats your tone easily and b) adds too much latency so in the end it's not feasible. So, no, you cannot get away with noise. It's going to be there, no matter what.
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Burillo
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2519 posts since 15 Nov, 2006, from Hell

Postby Burillo; Thu Dec 22, 2016 1:13 am Re: Kazrog Rack and other wishes

it's possible to implement more gain in a digital circuit because the amp itself can no longer produce noise. however, just because the amp itself doesn't produce thermal noise, doesn't mean your guitar doesn't. gain is still gain. gain brings up noise in analog signals (your guitar is just that - a digitized analog signal, with all of its goodies, including residual noise), and you can't escape that. sometimes knowing a little science doesn't hurt, audio engineering is as much engineering as it is audio.
From Russia with love
andy4trance
KVRist
 
129 posts since 11 Oct, 2012

Postby andy4trance; Thu Dec 22, 2016 1:34 am Re: Kazrog Rack and other wishes

Ok, as much as I apprecite the discussion, the noise gate request is quite different from the noise inherent to any amp or amp sim.

The thread is about the user experience with Thermionik functionalities and looks and not its actual sound quality.
musicalwarmth812
KVRer
 
22 posts since 13 May, 2011

Postby musicalwarmth812; Thu Dec 22, 2016 6:31 pm Re: Kazrog Rack and other wishes

EvilDragon wrote:Yes but you are NOT completely in the digital domain now. You still have analog things that HAVE some noise in them: the guitar pickups, the output jack, the cable, the audio interface. Digital domain can only amplify all that noise by whatever gain factor (well, pretty much the same thing that your analog amp will also do). Sure it can remove it by using FFT filtering, but that a) eats your tone easily and b) adds too much latency so in the end it's not feasible. So, no, you cannot get away with noise. It's going to be there, no matter what.


Are you serious dude? Unless you are using samples, I think we can safely assume that most users/owners are guitar players, and such are entirely aware the entire signal path (not needing to be pointed out one component at a time) from guitar to input is going to be analog. Yes, even with a real amp, no, you "cannot get away with noise," it's going to be there, no matter what. However, the reasons you use gates and/or noise reduction is to alleviate that noise (whether or not your personal preference is to use or not use a gate is immaterial). In the digital domain (again, design considerations - not whether or not we are recording to tape or to a digital format) there is much greater freedom to simply integrate this into the amp design.

Burillo wrote:it's possible to implement more gain in a digital circuit because the amp itself can no longer produce noise. however, just because the amp itself doesn't produce thermal noise, doesn't mean your guitar doesn't. gain is still gain. gain brings up noise in analog signals (your guitar is just that - a digitized analog signal, with all of its goodies, including residual noise), and you can't escape that. sometimes knowing a little science doesn't hurt, audio engineering is as much engineering as it is audio.


Yes, and we can argue the finer points of whether or not we are using active or passive pickups, single coils or humbuckers, high or low output, clean boost or not, and on and on...I'm definitely behind science - but not when it is not necessary to discuss the subject at hand, or when someone has already stated "I wasn't asking for a scientific explanation... I'm referring to design considerations."

andy4trance wrote:Ok, as much as I apprecite the discussion, the noise gate request is quite different from the noise inherent to any amp or amp sim. The thread is about the user experience with Thermionik functionalities and looks and not its actual sound quality.


Sorry for the hijack man.
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EvilDragon
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14136 posts since 6 Jan, 2009, from Croatia

Postby EvilDragon; Fri Dec 23, 2016 12:15 am Re: Kazrog Rack and other wishes

Noise gates still don't remove the noise completely. They are just removing the noise while you're not playing anything, or get below a certain threshold. The noise is still there DURING a note, and when the note decays sufficiently, of course you're going to hear it, there's no noise gate in the world that can remedy that. I see no huge reason that this needs to be implemented in the amp itself, really. There are no real benefits to that from what I can see (ok IRL you get one pedal less to carry around, but that's not the problem here). But, as a part of a virtual rack, it can sure be a separate effect available, no question about it.
andy4trance
KVRist
 
129 posts since 11 Oct, 2012

Postby andy4trance; Fri Dec 23, 2016 12:20 am Re: Kazrog Rack and other wishes

That noise is part of the tone as it should be, removing it will make the sim not so much of a sim.
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Kazrog
KVRian
 
789 posts since 24 Oct, 2009

Postby Kazrog; Fri Dec 23, 2016 9:39 am Re: Kazrog Rack and other wishes

Guys, relax, I'm working on a noise gate, as its own plugin. I've also been considering the Kazrog Rack idea more heavily now, because I find that when I'm developing my own sounds, I wish I had it. It's starting to feel like the right thing to do.

As for the expanded gain range of amp models in Thermionik - this is simply something that is inherent to working in the digital domain. The amp models are intended as 1:1 recreations, but you have a wider range of gain in front of them because of the way that digital gain control inherently works - it's like having the world's ultimate, perfectly clean volume pedal / booster in front of each amp, so you can go cleaner and more distorted than normal. That's all. To have it not be that way, I would have to impose intentional restrictions that (in many situations) may even impede people's ability to get the sounds they expect from a given amp model, because of the wide variety of interfaces and DIs out there. The best thing to do, IMO, is put the user in control of this. It certainly does open up the palette of available tones, and it's something that I personally enjoy a lot as a player.
Shane McFee
CEO/CTO - Kazrog LLC
andy4trance
KVRist
 
129 posts since 11 Oct, 2012

Postby andy4trance; Fri Dec 23, 2016 11:01 am Re: Kazrog Rack and other wishes

Again, good news that you will release the rack and noise gate!
No intention to change the graphics?

For the digital gain controls exceeding the real life counterparts you could simply mark that off border area with a red stripe, so that people could decide to stay "realistic" if they wanted to. Of course this would mean you have all the calibrations accurate.
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