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Kazrog announces new products, bundles

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Kazrog
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820 posts since 24 Oct, 2009

Postby Kazrog; Thu Feb 16, 2017 1:34 pm Re: Kazrog announces new products, bundles

Vasya Mishchenko wrote:No, no, no, Shane! That's not what the crowd is expecting you to reply, I suppose. If I want to set the drive knob to 0 what value should be the closest with Vintage Driver? Cuz now it's really a bit embarassing for when I set it to complete 0 I get complete nothing from the speakers. :(


Check out the "Djrive" and "Metal Focus" presets. 8)
Shane McFee
CEO/CTO - Kazrog LLC
Vasya Mishchenko
KVRist
 
71 posts since 1 Aug, 2014

Postby Vasya Mishchenko; Thu Feb 16, 2017 1:38 pm Re: Kazrog announces new products, bundles

Oh, wow! Now that's what I call Responsibility! Thanx a lot, man! Keep it up!
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GrabtharsHammer
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184 posts since 7 Apr, 2016, from Bünde, Germany

Postby GrabtharsHammer; Thu Feb 16, 2017 8:21 pm Re: Kazrog announces new products, bundles

I don't want to get on your nerves, but regarding the stomp box emulations I really would like to know the other original gain and volume min/max settings, too...

Apart from the min/max confusion - thanks for delivering a great product, Sir. :-)
egbert
KVRAF
 
3858 posts since 20 Oct, 2001, from my bolthole in the south pacific

Postby egbert; Thu Feb 16, 2017 9:21 pm Re: Kazrog announces new products, bundles

I had a thought about the gain level thing - perhaps a meter or even a text readout of the current gain of the plugin would be useful - sort of like a compressor GR meter but for boosts.

You could check out the effect of the controls in your host in the meantime by bypassing everything except the boost pedal and comparing channel levels with the boost active and bypassed.

I think with all the gain controls in the pedal and the amp plugin [6 or so including the input trims] it is bound to get a little confusing so ultimately you are going to be guided by your ears rather than raw numbers. Being able see and adjust all six gains at once on one page might be handy.
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GrabtharsHammer
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184 posts since 7 Apr, 2016, from Bünde, Germany

Postby GrabtharsHammer; Thu Feb 16, 2017 10:35 pm Re: Kazrog announces new products, bundles

egbert wrote:I think with all the gain controls in the pedal and the amp plugin [6 or so including the input trims] it is bound to get a little confusing [...]


This. I appreciate the idea of giving us users maximum tweakability - but sometimes less is more. To dial in 6-8 different gain/volume/trim settings for one guitar track is a little inconvenient and can get very confusing. Especially when the behaviour of stompbox emulations is different than the real gear.
A red marking around the gain/volume knobs that indicates the original devices' range would be a good thing. It would be easier to dial in recommended or familiar settings and would also point out Thermionik's extended range as a bonus feature in a positive way. That being said, I guess it's difficult for a proud developer to "dumb down" his product for the customers, I understand that.
Last edited by GrabtharsHammer on Fri Feb 17, 2017 3:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
haizz
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10 posts since 29 Jul, 2016

Postby haizz; Fri Feb 17, 2017 2:43 am Re: Kazrog announces new products, bundles

Yep, this gain thing is quite confusing to people who have spent some time dealing with their original hardware pedals & amps.
Especially when it's not clearly clarified with big-ass-font warning in the plugin UI or the manual that gain knobs ARE NOT the ones from the real device. In current situation someone not aware of this stuff just installs the plugin and then wonders why their TS808+Recto sim doesn't sound like real hardware at all! Of course in the perfect world everybody would use their ears etc etc, but in the real world it just creates confusion and drives people away, IMHO.
It's true that all DI's have different levels due to different DI boxes, interfaces inputs, preamps etc. But I think it's not a pedal sim's gain knob job to deal with this. Suppose that you have 10 sims in the chain — it's just a confusing mess to deal with all these gain settings because who knows how output/input levels for each plugin pair match compared to the real world hardware stuff! What would make much more sense to me is that you have separate purely digital Input Trim setting in the first plugin of the chain to deal with the DI level and all subsequent plugins in the chain should have this Input Trim set to 0 as default value. While the main gain knob acts just like the hardware counterpart. If someone wants to tweak the gain range of the sim — just use the Input Trim setting (which is 0 by default). It doesn't not reduce tweakability, it's just the separation of concerns to make things much more clear, especially for novice users.

In other words, if I reamp my DIs through a real chain of 10 devices I should expect getting the same results gain-wise with the same gain settings assuming that the level is set correctly before the signal hits the chain. Another bonus to this is that I can adjust my sound while tracking with plugins and then avoid spending hours in the studio trying to replicate the same sound basically from scratch when I reamp my DIs through the real stuff because the real stuff happens to have totally different knob parameters. I also read somewhere that Mark sims also have wider range of 5-band EQ settings? So the same question, where's the range of the real amp on that scale? Lot's of confusion here.
haizz
KVRer
 
10 posts since 29 Jul, 2016

Postby haizz; Fri Feb 17, 2017 2:52 am Re: Kazrog announces new products, bundles

Or MAYBE, there's an option to allow gain knob to have negative values and values > 10 (so you can literally drive your amp to 11), while 0 and 10 fully correspond to the hardware amp (again, assuming the input level is the same as in reamping situation). And stuff like 5-band EQ may have grid lines resembling the ones on the amp with clear min/max marking.
StateOE
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22 posts since 1 May, 2010

Postby StateOE; Fri Feb 17, 2017 3:41 am Gain Staging

I completely disagree with regard to gain staging. To me, the Thermionik gear is like the Idealized version of each piece, in that each piece can recreate it's real world counterpart, but go way way way beyond that. I mean, with physical gear we guitarists are endlessly tweaking and pining after new gear to get that little aspect of tone we're missing, and discerning ears can do this to a fault. I mean, Amplitube, for what it's worth, more or less seems to attempt that kind of warts and all re-creation, but I grew really to hate their amps sims after discovering Thermionik. What Shane has written about the inherent problems of simulator input gain from your audio interface is so right. This point has been exhausted in various forums online, whether the load to your pickups changes things or anything, it really does come back to your ears.

I think a bigger point, and way more important, is that all the best tones are created from ears primarily and not gear, and it really does take a bunch of tweaking no matter what. A few episodes of Pensado's Place's Into the Lair preview a bit of the level of tweaking that actually ends up making the sound for which one may pine, all after the guitar gear itself. Just the way great audio engineering is primarily comes down to good ears and craft, then access to tools by which to accomplish design, great tone starts just with your feeling and your ability to engineer your own tone, and no matter what you go for with physical gear, I think Thermionik's expansion of that gear is a huge improvement. Soldano said essentially that pedals should be superfluous with modern amps, and while I disagree there, I think he's getting at this very idea, that a single piece of gear can handle so much of the heavy work of tone sculpting. When your amp turns into some crazy chain you could only easily create in a DAW, more power to you; in the end, it's just about appeasing the inner tone hound so you can get to the real work. To me, the real work completely depends upon the tone, so I end up changing my playing style all the time to match the gear. I so prefer to have these pedals and amps that can really do anything at all I want. To me, that particular aspect has completely changed my life as a guitarist. I mean, I find not a bunch of saturation that sounds reminiscent of the finest gear here, but every array of completely useful and gargantuan tone.

I think you have to embrace your own tweaking nature and learn these pieces like they're new gear. I used to think about particular amps and conceive of how to phrase licks depending on which to which I'd have access, but none of that think applies at all any more. Now it's just a matter of flavor.

This is not meant to produce a big back and forth on tone philosophy, just my two cents. I also feel weird being so gung-ho over a piece of gear, but I can't get over what it's done for me. I'm going to back out slowly and quietly now.
haizz
KVRer
 
10 posts since 29 Jul, 2016

Postby haizz; Fri Feb 17, 2017 4:36 am Re: Kazrog announces new products, bundles

I think it's up to the user to decide how their job should be done, this way or that way - it doesn't matter which is "right" or "wrong", what matters is the end result. What we ask here is CLARITY on what's going on with the gain and the OPTION to set up a simple reference point to make the plugin chain as identical to a real reamping chain as possible. Why piss people off just because they got used to work a certain "not true" way while they achieve results they are happy with nevertheless?
Bouroki
KVRist
 
141 posts since 16 Jun, 2013, from Morocco

Postby Bouroki; Fri Feb 17, 2017 4:45 am Re: Kazrog announces new products, bundles

Try gain at 1.20 and output at +12 as a starting point.
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GrabtharsHammer
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184 posts since 7 Apr, 2016, from Bünde, Germany

Postby GrabtharsHammer; Fri Feb 17, 2017 8:16 am Re: Kazrog announces new products, bundles

Okay guys, I have to admit something. This discussion forced me to play around with the input gain a little. Until now I thought I wouldn't have to adjust it if I record the guitar at (and not over, of course) 0 dB, always thought that should be the optimal value. Listening carefully I observed that there seemed to be some unwanted compression and strange pumping going on no matter how I tweaked the gain settings, especially when having 3-4 different plugins (like Stockholm>Marshland800>Recabinet) in the chain. Then I reduced the input volume to a max value of approx. -5/-6 dB and was surprised - the whole guitar sound became much clearer (although I increased the gain to compensate the lower input volume) and the strange compression/pumping was gone. So this whole discussion had a very positive effect for me.
However, I still would like to know where the extended range begins and where it ends... ;-
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Burillo
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2591 posts since 15 Nov, 2006, from Hell

Postby Burillo; Fri Feb 17, 2017 8:50 am Re: Kazrog announces new products, bundles

doesn't gain knob essentially act like an input volume knob? i remember someone explaining to me that amp's "gain" is basically a pot that's leaking more or less signal to the ground, so "more gain" is equivalent to hotter input signal.
Last edited by Burillo on Fri Feb 17, 2017 8:53 am, edited 2 times in total.
From Russia with love
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GrabtharsHammer
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184 posts since 7 Apr, 2016, from Bünde, Germany

Postby GrabtharsHammer; Fri Feb 17, 2017 8:52 am Re: Kazrog announces new products, bundles

I don't think so. Otherwise the input trim feature would be completely useless, wouldn't it?! But maybe we could take that discussion a little deeper in another thread?
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Burillo
KVRAF
 
2591 posts since 15 Nov, 2006, from Hell

Postby Burillo; Fri Feb 17, 2017 8:54 am Re: Kazrog announces new products, bundles

GrabtharsHammer wrote:I don't think so. Otherwise the input trim feature would be completely useless, wouldn't it?! But maybe we could take that discussion a little deeper in another thread?

well, there's only one way to find out - null test. unfortunately, i can't do it right now as i'm away from my music PC. or Shane can chime in :)
From Russia with love
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GrabtharsHammer
KVRist
 
184 posts since 7 Apr, 2016, from Bünde, Germany

Postby GrabtharsHammer; Fri Feb 17, 2017 9:22 am Re: Kazrog announces new products, bundles

Yeah, I fear he WILL chime in and close this thread if we keep going on... ;-)

Regarding the input trim settings I discovered an already existing thread:
viewtopic.php?f=267&t=456629

But when it's true what you wrote about the gain knob, it would be the final proof that my ears are shit and I can't rely on them. :lol: :lol: :lol:
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