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kevinlyspirit
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3 posts since 24 Jan, 2018

Postby kevinlyspirit; Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:21 pm Wet/Dry knob

Hi Shane,

I love all of your plugins, but I have to admit a pet peeve that annoys me just a little every time i see it: the Wet/Dry knobs. It's definitely not a functional issue--just a user experience nitpick. The Dry signal outputs from the left (0%), Wet signal outputs from the right (100%). Yep that's the typical expected behaviour from a mix knob, all good. But the issue is that your knob operates conversely to the labelling.

My internal logic says that if the knob is labelled 'Wet/Dry' and the knob is turned all the way to the left, then the output should be wet. Same with the Dry labelling on the right side. Basically what I'd like to see instead is either a 'Dry/Wet' labelling (or simply 'Mix'), so that the position of the text intuitively matches with the dry signal outputting at 0% , and wet signal outputting at 100%.

Anyway, keep up the great work. Very much looking forward to messing around with KClip 3 :)
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EvilDragon
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16294 posts since 6 Jan, 2009, from Croatia

Postby EvilDragon; Thu Jan 25, 2018 12:33 am Re: Wet/Dry knob

Yeah it should be Dry/Wet rather than Wet/Dry. :D


You can actually hack the plugin DLLs, find text WET / DRY and replace it with DRY / WET across all the plugins. Haha. :)


There's also m_WetDry (parameter's automation name), not sure if changing that can break stuff in DAW projects.
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Kazrog
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755 posts since 24 Oct, 2009

Postby Kazrog; Thu Jan 25, 2018 1:05 pm Re: Wet/Dry knob

There's valid arguments in favor of either order of labeling. I can see how that's confusing, but if I change it, I'll just confuse a different group of users.
Shane McFee
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EvilDragon
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16294 posts since 6 Jan, 2009, from Croatia

Postby EvilDragon; Fri Jan 26, 2018 12:37 am Re: Wet/Dry knob

It's just plain wrong, though. Whichever is on the left side should match the knob in its leftmost state. It is only logical. :) Even if you just called the knob "Wet" would have been better, than this.

You won't confuse a different group of users if you state the change in the changelog and explain why. :)
kevinlyspirit
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3 posts since 24 Jan, 2018

Postby kevinlyspirit; Fri Jan 26, 2018 3:40 am Re: Wet/Dry knob

EvilDragon wrote:You can actually hack the plugin DLLs, find text WET / DRY and replace it with DRY / WET across all the plugins. Haha. :)


Haha nice! I'd certainly prefer a solution at the source and I'm not too sure about how to go about doing something like that, but cool to know nonetheless

Kazrog wrote:There's valid arguments in favor of either order of labeling. I can see how that's confusing, but if I change it, I'll just confuse a different group of users.


I thought about your response for a while before deciding how I should reply. Had some trouble with the spam filter too heh. I've gone through some plugins I use from other companies just to compare how they implemented the mix function to have a solid point of reference. Now I don't use a huge collection of plugins (even cleaned out half of them recently), but from the ones I have, none of them use the same labelling scheme as you do. I'm having a hard time understanding your perspective, to put it simply. The only group of users I can think of that would be confused are people who are very familiar with your plugins but don't use anybody else's.

Just to name a few with plugins I actually use: Acustica, Airwindows, Focusrite, Native Instruments, Soundtoys, XLN Audio--typically implement the blend knob function conventionally labelled as 'Mix' or Dry (left/0%) / Wet (right/100%). Some have a two-knob Dry and Output mixer configuration. Reaper stock plugins have separate Wet and Dry sliders (and its global wet knob uses typical conventions). Tokyo Dawn Labs tends to use a 'Dry Mix' knob, where the knob set all the way to the right is either 100% (as in Nova) or *mostly* dry (Kotelnikov--driest is at Make-up gain -60dB, Dry 0dB), but the labelling and percentage vs dB readouts make the differences intuitive enough.

The closest thing to yours I've seen is in NI's Supercharger, where the labelling of Wet actually is on the left and Dry is on the right. But when the knob is set to the left, the signal really is wet, just like the label implies. Percentages are also shown differently ('100% / 0%', '50% / 50%', '0% / 100%') for an additional layer of clearness.

Now I'm sure none of these implementations are new to you, as you would have done a great deal more research than I ever would as a non-developer. And I've used your plugins for long enough to know that you're a pretty meticulous guy who puts a lot of thought into the functionality and usability of your plugins. But specifically this Wet/Dry knob is the one aspect of your design that I simply don't understand.


TL;DR do you mind explaining your thought process behind the Wet/Dry labelling?
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EvilDragon
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16294 posts since 6 Jan, 2009, from Croatia

Postby EvilDragon; Fri Jan 26, 2018 3:42 am Re: Wet/Dry knob

kevinlyspirit wrote:I'm not too sure about how to go about doing something like that, but cool to know nonetheless


Just open the DLL in text editor and find "WET / DRY", then swap it with "DRY / WET" and resave. Keep backups just to be sure.
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Kazrog
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755 posts since 24 Oct, 2009

Postby Kazrog; Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:21 am Re: Wet/Dry knob

kevinlyspirit wrote:TL;DR do you mind explaining your thought process behind the Wet/Dry labelling?


It represents the ratio of the wet to dry signal, with the value of the control being the numerator. It's not intended as a physical label to indicate knob position as the "MIX" controls you mention from other plugins are.

Of course, it's not too late to change this for KClip 3. :ud:
Shane McFee
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EvilDragon
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16294 posts since 6 Jan, 2009, from Croatia

Postby EvilDragon; Fri Jan 26, 2018 2:12 pm Re: Wet/Dry knob

...or in all your other plugins in the next update... ;)


By your logic, it should just be called "Wet", then.
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Kazrog
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755 posts since 24 Oct, 2009

Postby Kazrog; Fri Jan 26, 2018 2:51 pm Re: Wet/Dry knob

EvilDragon wrote:...or in all your other plugins in the next update... ;)


By your logic, it should just be called "Wet", then.


... then people would wonder where the "dry" control is. :lol:

Again, this is an easy thing to change, but this is the first time I've ever heard there was any confusion over it. I'll be mulling over what the best solution is.
Shane McFee
CEO/CTO - Kazrog LLC
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Kazrog
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755 posts since 24 Oct, 2009

Postby Kazrog; Fri Jan 26, 2018 3:21 pm Re: Wet/Dry knob

How's this? (see attachment)
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Shane McFee
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kevinlyspirit
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3 posts since 24 Jan, 2018

Postby kevinlyspirit; Fri Jan 26, 2018 11:53 pm Re: Wet/Dry knob

Thanks for the explanation; I understand where you're coming from now. It wasn't something that I'd even considered and I can appreciate the technical correctness of the Wet/Dry. In the scheme of things it's a small detail that just makes its use slightly less intuitive and takes a second to readjust to whenever I go back and tweak it, and then I'll forget about it after it's done. I'm not really surprised nobody has brought it up until now because functionally it does its job and the plugins sound brilliant. There are likely a great deal many more pressing issues to worry about.

But concise and/or intuitive labelling is useful because it reduces visual and mental clutter for the user and lets them focus their brain's attention to more important things like what they're actually trying to do. Now, I don't like simplicity when it's at the cost of important functionality (I'm looking at you, Apple), but when the result is roughly equivalent, it's usually the better option. E.g. a "Quality" knob (such as the one you've got) to change between various amounts of oversampling could easily be labelled as "Anti-Aliasing" or "Oversampling", but "Quality" is more concise and gets the point across just as effectively.

Somewhat similarly, a label of "In Gain" with a dB readout gives exactly the same information as a label of "In" with a dB readout while being more concise, because what it does is obvious to anybody who has any experience working with audio. "In Gain" labelling has roughly the same length which gives it a better sense of balance, so I consider this decision fine.

I really like the Mix (Dry<->Wet) format you're showing in that screenshot because it's visually uncluttered yet completely transparent at a glance about how it's going to function. But now there's still that clash regarding the Wet/Dry label of the individual bands and the Mix (Dry<->Wet) knob of the master. Both labelling formats existing within the same plugin emphasises that disconnect for me, and in this case I'd now prefer to see the band "Wet/Dry" labelled instead as "Wet Mix" to keep the visual balance between label lengths while circumventing the whole contrary labelling thing.

Way too over the top nitpicking? Maybe. How ironic that a post dealing with conciceness is so much longer than it needs to be :roll: . So on that note I think I'll leave my ramblings there haha. The final direction obviously is up to your own preference. I just also want to add that the overall layout and visuals of KClip 3 are very, very nice!
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EvilDragon
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16294 posts since 6 Jan, 2009, from Croatia

Postby EvilDragon; Sat Jan 27, 2018 1:05 am Re: Wet/Dry knob

MIX with DRY on left and WET on right is probably the best solution, Shane. :)


How would you transfer it over to Thermionik, though, where the knob is quite a bit smaller?


Indeed, in individual sections you should then also have them as DRY/WET, instead of WET/DRY.


And to prevent repeating the same words, IN/OUT GAIN should perhaps just be IN(PUT) and OUT(PUT). Doesn't this look a TON cleaner/clearer?

Image
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Kazrog
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755 posts since 24 Oct, 2009

Postby Kazrog; Sat Jan 27, 2018 9:52 am Re: Wet/Dry knob

EvilDragon wrote:How would you transfer it over to Thermionik, though, where the knob is quite a bit smaller?


Nothing is changing in Thermionik (for now.) A major update/redesign is coming later this year...

EvilDragon wrote:Indeed, in individual sections you should then also have them as DRY/WET, instead of WET/DRY.


Yeah, I didn't get to that in the quick mockup, but obviously it should carry over. You did exactly what I would have done, by the way! 8)

EvilDragon wrote:And to prevent repeating the same words, IN/OUT GAIN should perhaps just be IN(PUT) and OUT(PUT). Doesn't this look a TON cleaner/clearer?


I hope that's clear enough, but it does look cleaner.
Shane McFee
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EvilDragon
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16294 posts since 6 Jan, 2009, from Croatia

Postby EvilDragon; Sat Jan 27, 2018 10:19 am Re: Wet/Dry knob

Kazrog wrote:A major update/redesign is coming later this year...


Aw man... Why do you keep doing this to us? :D :D :D


Now I won't be able to sleep. :hyper:

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