u-he SATIN as Reason Rack Extension?
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- KVRist
- 310 posts since 21 Oct, 2008 from new england
Reason users have been in love with the tape algorithm on Scream4 for years. Having something full featured like Satin should easily pull a profit.
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- KVRist
- 139 posts since 24 Mar, 2012
I cant wait for this in the rack, and don't price it dirt cheap either. Without the delay and flanger i still say its worth at least $99.Urs wrote:Well, Clemens, Sascha and I won't spend much time on RE development. The largest part is outsourced.
Unlike an iOS app I think that a Satin RE might create some profits. We need every bit of those as we are going to move to a new location in a few months.
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david.beholder david.beholder https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=159839 - KVRAF
- 1866 posts since 13 Sep, 2007
Can we have tuna as option in poll?
Murderous duck!
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- KVRAF
- 2031 posts since 15 Mar, 2002 from Seattle, WA - USA
The presence of class leading plugins like Satin in the RE store can only be a good thing for all involved. They contribute to making the Reason environment more attractive to devoted users and guarantee sales to Urs without the threat of piracy. Assuming most of the core code is re-usable, it seems like a no brainer to me. Voting "no" on a poll like this is silly.
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 113 posts since 17 Apr, 2012 from Germany
It is okay to vote "no", but it would be interesting to know why they are have voted "no". I guess they are knowing that "Satin" will look and sound totally great in "Reason" and are unhappy that they don't have it. 
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- KVRAF
- 2031 posts since 15 Mar, 2002 from Seattle, WA - USA
Yeah, I'd be curious too.spktkpkt wrote:It is okay to vote "no", but it would be interesting to know why they are have voted "no". I guess they are knowing that "Satin" will look and sound totally great in "Reason" and are unhappy that they don't have it.
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- Banned
- 22457 posts since 5 Sep, 2001
Any news on this? Also, now with the new SDK with improved maths, perhaps any limitations you might have previously had regarding cpu or graphics could be eliminated.
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- u-he
- 28062 posts since 8 Aug, 2002 from Berlin
We have a Satin RE with nearly finished UI, but it currently doesn't work. Crashes Reason.
So we're on a global bug hunt (reflected in the Latest Builds thread) and then we hope that Satin RE will run properly. If not, then we'll try to figure it out. Unfortunately I'm the only developer at u-he dealing with this, but I'm also in charge with a lot of other things. Thus unreleased software such as Satin RE has a lower priority than, say, fixing bugs in released software.
The changes in the latest RE SDK have no influence on how our stuff works. We've always used faster maths than whatever the standard libraries provide. The new SDK still does not allow us to code on assembly level. Thus there won't be a Diva RE anytime soon.
The new UI capabilities are cool, but they are not compatible with our UI code out of the box. A complex control such as a Zebra MSEG needs to be coded from scratch, scrolling panels still seem impossible. Thankfully neither Uhbiks nor Satin need this, but a Zebra RE is still out of the picture (as well as Filterscape and MFM2 I'm afraid).
Furthermore, cables are still confined to the backside, which rules out an ACE RE or a Bazille RE.
Lastly, the UI design process is tedious and can't be done for free. This rules out our freeware offerings.
Thus, so far, Uhbik's and Satin are the only u-he plug-ins that can go RE.
Our main problem with RE is human resources. We've hired 3 more people within half a year, but getting everything up to speed takes time. That's our main bottleneck, but I hope I'll find the time to do this soon.
- Urs
So we're on a global bug hunt (reflected in the Latest Builds thread) and then we hope that Satin RE will run properly. If not, then we'll try to figure it out. Unfortunately I'm the only developer at u-he dealing with this, but I'm also in charge with a lot of other things. Thus unreleased software such as Satin RE has a lower priority than, say, fixing bugs in released software.
The changes in the latest RE SDK have no influence on how our stuff works. We've always used faster maths than whatever the standard libraries provide. The new SDK still does not allow us to code on assembly level. Thus there won't be a Diva RE anytime soon.
The new UI capabilities are cool, but they are not compatible with our UI code out of the box. A complex control such as a Zebra MSEG needs to be coded from scratch, scrolling panels still seem impossible. Thankfully neither Uhbiks nor Satin need this, but a Zebra RE is still out of the picture (as well as Filterscape and MFM2 I'm afraid).
Furthermore, cables are still confined to the backside, which rules out an ACE RE or a Bazille RE.
Lastly, the UI design process is tedious and can't be done for free. This rules out our freeware offerings.
Thus, so far, Uhbik's and Satin are the only u-he plug-ins that can go RE.
Our main problem with RE is human resources. We've hired 3 more people within half a year, but getting everything up to speed takes time. That's our main bottleneck, but I hope I'll find the time to do this soon.
- Urs
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- Banned
- 22457 posts since 5 Sep, 2001
WOW thank you U-HE for such a detailed explanation of the SDK and it's continued limitation.
That's really good infos.. and i am sad to read (for everyone basically who will not get to use your amazing synths in reason) that the SDK still can't support something amazing as those. But i believe they will get there as they are obviously committed.
I am guessing you had a staff leave if you are the only one dealing with this then, so, sorry to hear that. Anyway, hope you have been well. I still think Satin is the best tape emu around but until i can sell VTM and actually get a few dollars back for it i haven't been able to afford it.
That said, if you manage to release it on RE, you will have the tape game on RE hook line and sinker in one fell swoop. This is a pretty good point... no one is going to suddenly be able to show something like it and have a competitor because it doesn't really have any even in AU land (features vs low latency vs sound quality).. so because reason users NEED a proper tap emu (which will make the standard reason factory sound bank sound much better in a mix, i know this cause i tested satin demo in logic over reason rewire), this one might be more important than the other RE's and might actually , well, i would bet WILL, give you a very good financial return.. i can't imagine any serious reason user saying no to a U-HE tape sim to be quite frank.
One comment you made re cpu usage on the older RE does interest me though, do you mind if i PM you about it and ask you a quick question, as i don't want to deviate off topic.
That's really good infos.. and i am sad to read (for everyone basically who will not get to use your amazing synths in reason) that the SDK still can't support something amazing as those. But i believe they will get there as they are obviously committed.
I am guessing you had a staff leave if you are the only one dealing with this then, so, sorry to hear that. Anyway, hope you have been well. I still think Satin is the best tape emu around but until i can sell VTM and actually get a few dollars back for it i haven't been able to afford it.
That said, if you manage to release it on RE, you will have the tape game on RE hook line and sinker in one fell swoop. This is a pretty good point... no one is going to suddenly be able to show something like it and have a competitor because it doesn't really have any even in AU land (features vs low latency vs sound quality).. so because reason users NEED a proper tap emu (which will make the standard reason factory sound bank sound much better in a mix, i know this cause i tested satin demo in logic over reason rewire), this one might be more important than the other RE's and might actually , well, i would bet WILL, give you a very good financial return.. i can't imagine any serious reason user saying no to a U-HE tape sim to be quite frank.
One comment you made re cpu usage on the older RE does interest me though, do you mind if i PM you about it and ask you a quick question, as i don't want to deviate off topic.
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- u-he
- 28062 posts since 8 Aug, 2002 from Berlin
Well, I have PMs turned off and I have ceased my email account. The only way I can still deal with one-to-one communication is over this forum, or via support at u-he dot com. But even there I sometimes need a few days… 
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- Banned
- 22457 posts since 5 Sep, 2001
well ok, and there is no hurry, it's jut something I am curious about re current uhbik RE cpu usage. You say that your RE are already using the fastest math so SDK2 can't really improve it for you. In the rack extension CPU Usage topic at the props forum, the topic's creator has a very powerful machine (a desktop that has double the power of my macbook pro) and his results correlate with mine (that i had done back over a year ago). the uhbiks are very cpu hungry. This is not something I am imagining, as when i did my test i got 250 uhbik F playing in a 32 audio track 16 bar loop in logic with out a hitch, and all cores maxed. In reason I got 13-15 uhbik F. The person who did the topic gets 28. So that's in line with my findings vs his computer speed vs mine.
So I guess it's a flat out question.. SDK2 can not improve something like this? Of course before anyone asks, i do not need 250 flangers, it's just a DSP observation and this is how dsp tests are done, to test max instances.
Is it that uhbik analog code is so high quality that other RE simply aren't as high quality? I for example never imagined a flanger using so much CPU (but uhbik f does sound ridiculously warm).
i guess I am honestly confused as to why the Uhbik's are using alot of DSP vs the AU versions yet are using faster math than the SDK provides, and it also semi concerns me about a satin RE whether that would have a similar "issue". Tape is something one would want to , at times, insert on every channel. I wonder if it would even be possible as an RE and to have room left over for anything else.
I understand the Satin RE is not a priority, and i personally feel that the non resale and DSP limitations have affected profits as less people are willing to buy till things are improved in those areas. That said i think satin would sell incredibly well and those without uber computers would simply mix into it on the master bus which is still going to sound good if the mix is designed to use it from the outset, and any machine could handle an instance, and because the latency is negligible it won't affect monitoring to any noticeable degree by having it on the master, but i guess i had it in my mind that SDK 2 might get closer to AU figures (say even half) and from what i am understanding from your post, this won't be the case (and also there is no point putting the current uhbik RE in sdk2, correct?)
So I guess it's a flat out question.. SDK2 can not improve something like this? Of course before anyone asks, i do not need 250 flangers, it's just a DSP observation and this is how dsp tests are done, to test max instances.
Is it that uhbik analog code is so high quality that other RE simply aren't as high quality? I for example never imagined a flanger using so much CPU (but uhbik f does sound ridiculously warm).
i guess I am honestly confused as to why the Uhbik's are using alot of DSP vs the AU versions yet are using faster math than the SDK provides, and it also semi concerns me about a satin RE whether that would have a similar "issue". Tape is something one would want to , at times, insert on every channel. I wonder if it would even be possible as an RE and to have room left over for anything else.
I understand the Satin RE is not a priority, and i personally feel that the non resale and DSP limitations have affected profits as less people are willing to buy till things are improved in those areas. That said i think satin would sell incredibly well and those without uber computers would simply mix into it on the master bus which is still going to sound good if the mix is designed to use it from the outset, and any machine could handle an instance, and because the latency is negligible it won't affect monitoring to any noticeable degree by having it on the master, but i guess i had it in my mind that SDK 2 might get closer to AU figures (say even half) and from what i am understanding from your post, this won't be the case (and also there is no point putting the current uhbik RE in sdk2, correct?)
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- KVRAF
- 5564 posts since 13 Jan, 2005 from the bottom of my heart
it's easy, i voted "no" because i don't use reason and want that urs concentrate on the important things.Tronam wrote:Yeah, I'd be curious too.spktkpkt wrote:It is okay to vote "no", but it would be interesting to know why they are have voted "no". I guess they are knowing that "Satin" will look and sound totally great in "Reason" and are unhappy that they don't have it.
Whoever wants music instead of noise, joy instead of pleasure, soul instead of gold, creative work instead of business, passion instead of foolery, finds no home in this trivial world of ours.
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- Banned
- 22457 posts since 5 Sep, 2001
I get that.. that's fair enough i suppose..but i doubt any reason user would have voted no as the RE is what's important to them. I am sure in return if there was an RE developer that did a poll at PUF whether to go VST, they'd all vote no to keep the dev concentrating on RE
