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VST3 - known issues (Updated info!)

Compyfox
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14156 posts since 18 Oct, 2003, from Berlin, Germany

Postby Compyfox; Thu Oct 23, 2014 12:20 pm Re: VST3 - known issues

zvenx wrote:Very Proud Cubendo user here :-)

In fairness, I have always heard grief with Wavelab, even from the first time I heard about it which was I think Wavelab 3......


Most known VST3 issues (to my 4+ years of beta testing experience):
Wavelab (VST3 since WL7, before that - everything was mostly fine):
- Audio Forward Bug (some devs have it, but then really persistent, some don't)
- GUI issues (GUI recall not working, some animations not working if no stream is applied)

CubEndo / Studio One
- sporadically not processing the audio stream
- compatibility issues (what works in host A, doesn't necessarily work in host B and visa versa)
- GUI issues (i.e. Slate Digital most recent official VBC versions, meters in VST3 versions don't work properly, sometimes GUI is not being recalled on host/project relaunch, etc)
- I had one developer where the VST3 version completely put Cubase into a grinding halt (bypassed the host insert bypass capabilities, bypass didn't work anymore, only power off)
- sometimes higher ASIO load than VST2

This is just the tip of the iceberg if we talk about VST3.


And you should know by now, I'm a proud Steinberg user as well.
So who is in the wrong? The 3rd party devs, or the host devs?
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Breeze
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1906 posts since 13 Oct, 2002

Postby Breeze; Sun Nov 16, 2014 8:16 am Re: VST3 - known issues

I've read most of this thread now and it's clear that VST3 leaves a lot to be desired with respect to consistency and reliability. However unless one is a programmer (or a "God" as arakula terms it; no hubris there, of course... ;) ), it's simply impossible for us mere mortals to really evaluate the issues.

But from a very innocent uneducated perspective, as zvenx has pointed out, one must ask why it's possible for a small dev to offer a 20 Euro plugin that implements VST3 sidechains reliably while a programming powerhouse like U-he decides to stop ALL VST3 development until further notice. I do understand that it's the architecture of the building system that has to be redesigned, but that an interim solution can't be found to at least implement the essentials seems a bit like an over-reaction.

Up until Presswerk, VST3 was never an issue for me with regards to U-he products. None of the many processors and VI's in the catalog required it really. The most vital thing one would need it for is the ease of sidechaining in Steinberg's and a few other hosts (which in retrospect does seem like a strong-arm tactic they used to push the adoption of VST3). It's really quite unfortunate that the release of Presswerk has coincided with the folding up of VST3 development, the first U-he product where it would prove to be most useful!

I posted about this in the Presswerk thread, and it was completely disregarded. I get it. I've mentioned this before: maybe an interim solution is a VST3 wrapper for VST2.4 plugins. This would allow a functional alternative to exist, while permitting all concerned parties to thumb their noses at Steinberg to their heart's content... ;)
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zvenx
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5833 posts since 16 Feb, 2005, from Kingston, Jamaica

Postby zvenx; Sun Nov 16, 2014 8:56 am Re: VST3 - known issues

I am with you for the most part. I am hoping one day u-he will work with vst3 and presswerk will allow cubendo side-chaining without gymnastics.
rsp
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EvilDragon
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15077 posts since 6 Jan, 2009, from Croatia

Postby EvilDragon; Sun Nov 16, 2014 10:11 am Re: VST3 - known issues

u-he uses their own framework for making their plugins. That other small dev (if you mean Klanghelm) uses JUCE framework (IIRC), which makes this easier to deal with, since JUCE has VST3 support covered directly.

Obviously, the way u-he has built their framework is not really compatible with the way VST3 demands to be coded, hence all the issues that arose. At least that's how it looks from my perspective.
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Urs
u-he
 
21580 posts since 7 Aug, 2002, from Berlin

Postby Urs; Sun Nov 16, 2014 12:08 pm Re: VST3 - known issues

I'm sorry if I disregarded things - I'm just exeptionally busy. On top of Presswerk and Hive development we're renovating our new flat and I also have to help my wife with her latest release. Therefore I rarely check emails, I leave things up to support (Rob, Michael, Howie) and for the most part I left "everything Presswerk" in the hands of Sascha, Jan, Michael and Basti.

We will certainly come back to VST3. It's probably much easier than I think it is. Only, this has cost us so much time and energy, I simply need to do something else first. I can't comprehend the idea of wading through this before Hive and Presswerk are out.

- Urs
Breeze
KVRAF
 
1906 posts since 13 Oct, 2002

Postby Breeze; Mon Nov 17, 2014 4:54 am Re: VST3 - known issues

Thanks for the heads up, Urs. I know all about "busy". ;)

Good luck with your other projects. It's probably a good thing to step away from the problem and come back to it with fresh eyes. I'll try to be more patient - guess I needed to vent. :oops:
DrWashington
KVRist
 
177 posts since 28 Mar, 2005, from Seattle

Postby DrWashington; Sun Sep 13, 2015 8:34 pm Re: VST3 - known issues

I've discovered another interesting issue with Diva in particular: the mouse wheel won't change parameters when you select a knob or slider. I don't know if this has been mentioned before, but I just discovered it recently. I hope more developers are able to coordinate with Steinberg to keep improving VST3. I love some of the improvements, but it does seem to still have some major issues left to iron out.
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Urs
u-he
 
21580 posts since 7 Aug, 2002, from Berlin

Postby Urs; Fri Mar 04, 2016 6:29 am Re: VST3 - known issues

An update:

A preliminary version of our VST3 rewrite has gone in internal beta testing today. It is supposed to resolve all stability problems that we had with VST3. As promised, the VST3 rewrite was the main priority after the big maintenance update we did in August, and it looks like it's nearly done.

However, as of now we are going to handle MIDI Learn differently in VST3 than in other formats. VST3 does not directly support MIDI input for plug-ins, but parameters can be assigned to MIDI controllers. This is cool, but it doesn't let us perform MIDI learn. So far we used a workaround (i.e. assign 128 x 16 "fake parameters" to MIDI controllers), but as VST3 evolves we think it won't be necessary for much longer. Hence we might temporarily provide MIDI assignments only via the list editor in our new VST3 layer.

We'll keep you posted!

- Urs
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billcarroll
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1821 posts since 9 Dec, 2011, from falling

Postby billcarroll; Fri Mar 04, 2016 6:56 am Re: VST3 - known issues (Updated info!)

Thanks for the update, Urs. Will VST3 bring any performance enhancements to any of the u-he plugins? Now that you are in beta, has u-he found any advantages or unexpected disadvantages to VST3 (outside of sjidechaining and the MIDI issues you mention above)?

Update from Blue Cat Audio on their release of VST3. I thought their blog post on the features and limitations of VST3 was interesting.
http://bluecataudio.com/Blog/new-releas ... -what-for/
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EvilDragon
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15077 posts since 6 Jan, 2009, from Croatia

Postby EvilDragon; Fri Mar 04, 2016 7:10 am Re: VST3 - known issues (Updated info!)

"VST 3 format was released a couple of years ago".

More like 8. :D ("Couple" implies two.)
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Urs
u-he
 
21580 posts since 7 Aug, 2002, from Berlin

Postby Urs; Fri Mar 04, 2016 7:17 am Re: VST3 - known issues (Updated info!)

billcarroll wrote:Thanks for the update, Urs. Will VST3 bring any performance enhancements to any of the u-he plugins? Now that you are in beta, has u-he found any advantages or unexpected disadvantages to VST3 (outside of sjidechaining and the MIDI issues you mention above)?

Hehe, sorry, but there are no performance improvements with VST3. The plug-in format layer contributes a minuscle amount to the CPU performance of a plug-in, and whatever performance improvements there are, have to be plug-in specific (i.e. in all formats)

Other than that, we do not know of any new advantages or disadvantages of VST3. We still forgo "VST3 Note Expressions" in favour of Multichannel MIDI support. We do however have plans to also support Note Expressions if the new VST3 layer proves stable.
Update from Blue Cat Audio on their release of VST3. I thought their blog post on the features and limitations of VST3 was interesting.
http://bluecataudio.com/Blog/new-releas ... -what-for/

Yep, what they say: VST3 plug-ins don't handle MIDI data directly.
aboukirev
KVRist
 
66 posts since 16 Oct, 2012

Postby aboukirev; Fri Mar 04, 2016 7:28 pm Re: VST3 - known issues (Updated info!)

What about registering multiple plugins from a single plugin file (thinking about Uhbik, Zebra/Zebralette/ZRev, and Filterscape)? Or does that complicate installer in turn?
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Urs
u-he
 
21580 posts since 7 Aug, 2002, from Berlin

Postby Urs; Sat Mar 05, 2016 3:36 am Re: VST3 - known issues (Updated info!)

aboukirev wrote:What about registering multiple plugins from a single plugin file (thinking about Uhbik, Zebra/Zebralette/ZRev, and Filterscape)? Or does that complicate installer in turn?

We have an optional (!) "Service Center" type of app on our todo list. This will help to install, register, update and deinstall our stuff with less user interaction.
woodsdenis
KVRian
 
1405 posts since 24 Feb, 2005

Postby woodsdenis; Sat Mar 12, 2016 8:45 am Re: VST3 - known issues (Updated info!)

What is the point in Vst 3 for synths ?
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Gonga
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2094 posts since 27 Feb, 2011

Postby Gonga; Sat Mar 12, 2016 9:09 am Re: VST3 - known issues (Updated info!)

U-He software is already the easiest to install of all. I especially appreciate the way it intelligently knows that all my libraries and vsts are on a separate hard drive, and it automatically installs library and vst updates to the right locations with no clicking required on the user's part. How wonderful and rare that is! I feel like my needs are being listened to and my intelligence is being respected. Kudos once again to U-He.

On the other hand, NI's Service Center has not been able to do that ever for me. I can only use it to download updates...the installer part of Service Center hasn't worked correctly for me for years. I assume that's because my libraries are not in the default location. Additionally and like most software, NI insists on installing a lot of user-modified stuff, such as presets, to the C: drive. Primitive and eternally a PITA for those of us who prefer separate drives for all our personal data, so that it is separate from a potentially crashed OS. The best example of the fully automatic multiple-update approach on my system is XLN Audio's Online Installer. It always works simply, quickly and reliably. However, nothing will ever beat U-He's ability to totally respect my choice of working completely off the C: drive. :clap:

VST3? Pfftt...don't care. YMMV, but I can do all the routing and side-chaining I need under SONAR without much difficulty. I don't see any major benefits. Though it is a PITA the way all those VST3 dlls get installed to the C; drive against my will!
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