Repro5 effects in Repro 1

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Well, there's no "if" with sound designers like Howard Scarr, Jozsef Hollo, Ed Harvey, etc. :)

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"Not without my effects!"
~Captain Jack Sparrow

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These days effects are pretty good! Onboard or not.

As for synth patches drenched in effects, could it all have started with the early hardware synths, like the M1 and D-50, they had simple effects and patch memory, so the idea was to drench many sounds in chorus, delay, and reverb, so they sounded good in the music store...

Onboard effects are here to stay IMHO. Got a couple of "big" drum plug-ins here that come with their own channels, mixer and lotsa effects. "DAW within the DAW".

It is how they sound solo'd versus together with a group of other sounds in the mixdown. That is when I would use good mixing sense, and listen to all that stuff dry.

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I don’t think this is a black and white issue, it depends on the type of sound and synth. For example I love some of the sound design for Sunrizer but there are also some banks that annoy me with every patch being drenched in the same generic delay/reverb, it makes them very samey. With simplistic and generic FX like this I have to question the point, and the result can sometimes be boring cheesy patches. On the other hand Diversion has some really useful creative FX like a granuliser that I would say are just as much part of the sound design as what goes on with the oscs. Here the effect is integral to the sound as a whole and just turning it off is not really an option. Same with plugins like Absynth and Omnsiphere (sometimes).

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electro wrote:FX don't really belong on synths, especially emulations of old Analogs. We have VSTHosts for chaining effects to synths then also look into creative tools like DDMF Metaplugin.
AnX wrote:You can add any fx you like in the host and they are saved with thr project either as part of the song or as a template etc. No need for fx built into a synth. They are only there to sell the sound in the factory banks, usually compensating for something.
You are both missing the architectural possibilities that effects built into a synth have. In the best case, they are literally capable of doing things that are impossible and/or much more difficult to achieve with separate plugins.

Depending on the synth design, built-in effects can be placed in the internal signal chain in locations that have other in-synth operations happening after them, for example you can have distortion happening before the filter, and the filter is then modulated (per-voice) by the synth's envelopes. Another similar example, in the case of Repro 5, distortion is indeed a per-voice effect. It's a specific period-accurate use case of the emulated synth, remarkably different from distorting the whole polyphonic signal with an fx unit placed in the chain after the synth (try it). Depending on the synth, effect parameters can also be modulation targets inside the synth, so they can react to velocity/pressure/envelopes/etc etc... while you play, and be an important part of the patch.

In short, in the best case built-in effects are a very integral part of the synth and patch architecture, and can't be 1:1 compared with separate effects units. The ways this can manifest vary, but as with Repro 5, it really is a valid observation :) instead of "only there to sell sound banks by drenching the patches in effects."

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Guenon wrote:Depending on the synth, effect parameters can also be modulation targets inside the synth, so they can react to velocity/pressure/envelopes/etc etc... while you play, and be an important part of the patch.
You can do that in any host with any effect and any parameter. Infact, you have more freedom that way.

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AnX wrote:You can do that in any host with any effect and any parameter. Infact, you have more freedom that way.
No, it's not the same thing. Again, when this happens actually inside the synth, these aspects are an integral part of patch design, and (depending on the synth) can also happen per-voice, can happen before some other core processes in the synth's internal signal chain, can use the synth's own envelope functionality so that effect parameters can proportionally share the same envelope triggering you have happening for other parts of the synth, and so on and so on. Also, sound designs / patches like this are saveable and loadable simply as one actual patch of the said synth, which can then have sounds like this included in its own library, instead of coming with a bunch of project files for different environments and external effects.

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Guenon wrote:
AnX wrote:You can do that in any host with any effect and any parameter. Infact, you have more freedom that way.
No, it's not the same thing. Again, when this happens actually inside the synth, these aspects are an integral part of patch design, and (depending on the synth) can also happen per-voice, can happen before some other core processes in the synth's internal signal chain, can use the synth's own envelope functionality so that effect parameters can proportionally share the same envelope triggering you have happening for other parts of the synth, and so on and so on.
Its so rare its not something im worried about. I dont recall the last time i saw anyone doing that in a factory bank. Its usually something dull like MW > Delay Amt etc etc

Guenon wrote:Also, sound designs / patches like this are saveable and loadable simply as one actual patch of the said synth, which can then have sounds like this included in its own library, instead of coming with a bunch of project files for different environments and external effects.
I save the whole lot in a project as i will only use it once. The sound as a whole is designed from scratch to fit a specific need, so its no big deal.

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AnX wrote:Its so rare its not something im worried about. I dont recall the last time i saw anyone doing that in a factory bank. Its usually something dull like MW > Delay Amt etc etc
AnX wrote:I save the whole lot in a project as i will only use it once. The sound as a whole is designed from scratch to fit a specific need, so its no big deal.
Ah, but if it's not a big deal for you, or if you design sounds that way, it doesn't follow that the above example can be done "in any host with any effect and any parameter", or that there is universally "no need for fx built into a synth", or... you get the idea :)

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In the end, though, even a filter is an effect. Why have different / high quality filters in a synth when you have as nice ones as Runciter or The Drop that you can place in the signal chain after the synth? This question isn't actually as dumb or provocative as it might sound ;), haha. It's more like a "why / why not / what if" type of thing.

The obvious answer would be, "well, filters are such an important part of the overall sound, a cornerstone of subtractive sound design, it totally makes sense to save them with the patch, and have them operate per-voice, have them work with built-in high quality modulation, and all that jive." But: when ever you have any high-quality processes you can alter the sound with, there are potential benefits in both having them inside and outside the synth. And it extends the sound design pallette there is available for a patch when you have some well thought out processes available also in-synth. It's not an either/or thing, and it's great that there are all kinds of creative options available :)

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Guenon wrote:
AnX wrote:Its so rare its not something im worried about. I dont recall the last time i saw anyone doing that in a factory bank. Its usually something dull like MW > Delay Amt etc etc
AnX wrote:I save the whole lot in a project as i will only use it once. The sound as a whole is designed from scratch to fit a specific need, so its no big deal.
Ah, but if it's not a big deal for you, or if you design sounds that way, it doesn't follow that the above example can be done "in any host with any effect and any parameter", or that there is universally "no need for fx built into a synth", or... you get the idea :)
Sure, but im only talking about me, giving my opinion. I dont speak for everyone, nor do devs pander to just my every needs. You cant please all the ppl etc etc

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AnX wrote:Sure, but im only talking about me, giving my opinion. I dont speak for everyone, nor do devs pander to just my every needs. You cant please all the ppl etc etc
Ok, I think it's just a poor choice of words on your part then. I understand :). Saying things like, these things can be done "in any host with any effect and any parameter", or "fx chain in the project is saved with the song, same thing", and subsequently replying "yes it is" when it's pointed out that it's not the same thing. Those are all statements that are technically/factually true or not, not opinions. If you had said, "I have no use for built-in fx and couldn't be less interested in them", and similar, I wouldn't have replied. But your statement that it's "the same thing" doesn't become true just because of your personal opinion. That's the difference, and it's pretty much just in the chosen words, no biggie.

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Lets me rephrase then. I prefer to work that way as its more versatile and the quality of fx are usually much better. :wink:

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AnX wrote:Lets me rephrase then. I prefer to work that way as its more versatile and the quality of fx are usually much better. :wink:
Haha, I see ;)

Yeah, it's more versatile to work that way, for the things it's more versatile to be working that way -- just as built-in effects are more versatile, for the things it's more versatile to be working that way :D

This is why I said it's not either/or, and well... personally I like to use both ways, really, depending on what I'm doing. I gather that saying "I prefer to work that way as it's more versatile" still subtly (and misleadingly) implies it also covers the use cases of the alternative.

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Obviously, an effects section is expected in synth plug-ins these days.

There's no need to argue over this.

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