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aciddose
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11054 posts since 7 Dec, 2004, from Vancouver, Canada

Postby aciddose; Mon Feb 06, 2017 5:14 pm Re: README - For non-programmers with great ideas

DzAH wrote:Im actually studying software engineering,

Im SURE they are possible :)

Im more concerned about how to split equity


Why do you need a programmer at all? You sound like you can keep 100% of the idea and implement it yourself.

Otherwise, exactly how much is this worth? The idea vs. a working implementation of that idea?

Your idea is worthless as it is now. It is only worth something once it is implemented. You can not implement it, otherwise you wouldn't be looking for a programmer to implement it for you.

You probably have the scale of equity tilted a little bit too far toward yourself and your idea.

Ideas are cheap. Implementations are expensive.

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=av ... ted+states
DzAH
KVRist
 
74 posts since 27 Nov, 2011, from Norway

Postby DzAH; Tue Feb 07, 2017 2:16 pm Re: README - For non-programmers with great ideas

aciddose wrote:Why do you need a programmer at all? You sound like you can keep 100% of the idea and implement it yourself.


For different reasons, but mainly, because I have chosen to focus on web technologies. Its enough for me to learn about Software Engineering in general, and web technologies like PHP, JS, different DBs, HTML, CSS etc. I do also try to develop web related businesses. I think its best to focus on that for quite some time, and not try to learn C++, DSP etc. also.

aciddose wrote: Otherwise, exactly how much is this worth? The idea vs. a working implementation of that idea?

Your idea is worthless as it is now. It is only worth something once it is implemented.


Well this might turn into a endless philosophical debate.. :)

In the end the market decides values, or simply what people agree upon. In this specific case its a possible partnership so the most important thing is that both parties think the agreement is "fair". Its kinda impossible to say exactly "what is objectively right", but if both consider it to be "fair" it is at least "ok".

And, also, if I have an idea and the programmer wants to implement it does probably mean that he does consider my idea greater then his own.. else why would he care about implementing mine, and not rather his own ideas? And since it is mine and I give it away it would be obvious that I should get something in return.

What that "something in return" is.. that is arguable of cause, but it could depend on the greatness of the idea. If its just a little thing then maybe the right thing would be that I get the implementation/end product for free (this is the minimum fair return I guess), but if the idea is expected to make huge profits if implemented right, then I say its fair that I should have a share of equity/profit that relates to those expectations.

aciddose wrote: You probably have the scale of equity tilted a little bit too far toward yourself and your idea.


Why do you think so? I dont think so.. :) maybe we would end up disagreeing.. maybe not.. idk.. :)

aciddose wrote: ..your idea.


What I answered so far was under the assumption of "an idea". In my cases its not "an idea".. it is "an architecture" (or actually many). So its more one (or more) main idea, with many sub-ideas and concepts, into a coherent system with many parts and relations. This means brainstorming, decision making, descriptions, drawing, designs.. etc. That is actual work too, much more than just "an idea".

I think the most easy agreement would be equity based on actual work. If the description of the system took 1 week of work do design, and the implementation took 49 weeks, equity split would be 2% to the "idea guy" and 98% to the programmer.
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aciddose
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11054 posts since 7 Dec, 2004, from Vancouver, Canada

Postby aciddose; Wed Feb 08, 2017 2:27 pm Re: README - For non-programmers with great ideas

One of the greatest challenges you'll face is due to the fact that yes, why should a programmer implement your design rather than their own?

In terms of the choice of what to actually implement, this depends upon the profitability of the idea (in music DSP, forget it) or the enjoyment of the process itself as well as the results.

Assuming the task required 40 weeks of effort, the cost is something like 40k (minimum expense to employ a person, basic living expenses) + a share of the profit from the resulting implementation.

Going with your numbers not only would the programmer "fairly" see 98% of profits, but 40k of basic expenses up-front to make the implementation possible at all.

In many cases ideas are simply not profitable. If they were it must be questioned why they are not yet already implemented? This is often due to the idea being impractical in some way which is often not obvious, including the possibility that the end product is entirely undesired in the market available for it, which may be very small to begin with!

Another common issue is that the amount of effort required to produce an implementation is severely underestimated. For example you might imagine a single programmer spending 40 weeks while in reality it might take ten programmers 200 weeks.
DzAH
KVRist
 
74 posts since 27 Nov, 2011, from Norway

Postby DzAH; Thu Feb 09, 2017 12:40 pm Re: README - For non-programmers with great ideas

aciddose wrote:In terms of the choice of what to actually implement, this depends upon the profitability of the idea (in music DSP, forget it)...


what do you mean?

now.. by your replies in general, I get the impression that you are unwilling to implement anything no matter what, unless you are getting paid upfront.. that you are not willing to take a "true startup risk" (no payment, only equity) because its too difficult to earn money in the "DSP music market".. ??
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aciddose
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11054 posts since 7 Dec, 2004, from Vancouver, Canada

Postby aciddose; Fri Feb 10, 2017 7:39 am Re: README - For non-programmers with great ideas

That's correct. If you think any programmer should take on a risk without being paid "up front" (as if this is somehow unusual) you're a fool. You need to realize that if you expect a programmer to work for free for your "startup" as you call it, you're basically expecting the programmer to be paying you!

What you are paying for is for the risk to be taken on! Otherwise why should a programmer waste time and effort on an unprofitable task when there are many other more profitable tasks available?

Contracts often include payment periods (monthly, bi-weekly) and schedules used to determine whether progress has met expectations.

The first period is often paid in advance to demonstrate good faith.

If you were capable of writing a well defined "blueprint" (which I know you are not, if you were you wouldn't be here) you could create a highly detailed schedule and could begin negotiation with programmers available to undertake the task.

Given enough detail in the schedule, most programmers will be able to identify flaws and will require those be corrected before they agree to the contract.

The flaws are always due to a lack of detail and proper understanding of the task. Always.

If you are capable, here is what you should be doing rather than wasting time here:

  1. Write a schedule, start with the most simple components (<2 weeks)
  2. Each component requires enough detail to actually implement it. Any missing details won't be part of the result, remember this is your contract!
  3. Publish this publicly, post in this forum linking to the document and requesting quotes.
  4. Once you get some quotes, negotiate any further details (license, additional terms) with the interested party.
  5. Sign an agreement and make the up-front payment you've agreed to.
  6. Pray you get results.

You can limit the initial schedule to include critical although non-core components. For example you can design and implement a lot of needed components for your design without giving away the design itself. Get all these components working (the ones you know are valid) before you worry about larger more ambitious designs.

Once you have a working relationship with a programmer and the experience of creating such contract specifications, you can take the rest of your design out of hiding and if you're lucky get it implemented.

If you need any further assistance, you're looking to hire a consultant. The idea to hire a consultant is cheap, actual consulting is expensive.
DzAH
KVRist
 
74 posts since 27 Nov, 2011, from Norway

Postby DzAH; Fri Feb 10, 2017 4:23 pm Re: README - For non-programmers with great ideas

aciddose wrote: ..why should a programmer waste time and effort on an unprofitable task when there are many other more profitable tasks available?


well yea.. unless the programmer is convinced the proposed product has huge potential and is truly assured that it could be very profitable once implemented.. yea, then it doesnt make sense at all to take that risk.. I totally agree.

But, is "unprofitability" necessarily true? I mean, is it really that unthinkable that (lets say) a totally revolutionary new instrument, effect, or host could be very profitable once implemented? I was under the assumption that it is possible.. and please bear with me, because of all the money in circulation, and all the professional companies in business.. I still am..

And if the premise is that it is possible, then I truly dont ask for too much, just equity based upon contribution, which is totally normal and reasonable. And I dont force anyone to implement, I just might show my architectures, and its the programmers free choice to implement or discard it.
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aciddose
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11054 posts since 7 Dec, 2004, from Vancouver, Canada

Postby aciddose; Fri Feb 10, 2017 7:54 pm Re: README - For non-programmers with great ideas

I wouldn't bet much on it being profitable or of any importance at all. The odds are stacked against you.

The saying is: "if you have a truly great idea there is no need to keep it secret; it must rather be shoved down everyone's throat."

Unfortunately even if you do have good ideas/designs that are entirely practical, they may fall on deaf ears and you may waste your effort in publishing them.

Don't let that stop you though, by all means please do publish these ideas and see if anyone adopts them. Just don't get your hopes up.
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antto
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2403 posts since 4 Sep, 2006, from 127.0.0.1

Postby antto; Sun Feb 12, 2017 5:49 am Re: README - For non-programmers with great ideas

i went to learn programming so i can implement my own ideas myself
i have bags full of "great" ideas, and mountains of bad ideas

but i can only do a few things at a given time, so there's the rule of nature - the best idea gets a chance, the others stay in the bags, waiting
even then, it's not uncommon that a "great" idea has a flaw, which isn't obvious at first.. untill i go to implement it or just think in more details
such things can quickly render an idea from "great" to "meh" or even "unpractical"

i want to share an idea for the best possible DAW:
it's a fully customizable DAW where you can turn the sound you hear in your head into reality, by just thinking about it
i guess it will require a fast computer, maybe a quantum one, and a device that reads the brain..
well it can't be too hard, can it? the "programmers" will figure out a way, they're the smart guys, i'm the idea guy
It doesn't matter how it sounds..
..as long as it has BASS and it's LOUD!

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