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Analog modelling

buescher
KVRist
 
60 posts since 7 Aug, 2013

Postby buescher; Thu Feb 18, 2016 9:12 am Re: Analog modelling

aciddose wrote:Broken record indeed. Vinyl fetishism is the ideal example to use.

Full stop.


well, in terms of dollars and sense, a lot of stores have drastically reduced the number of CDs they stock, or eliminate them altogether. used CDs are pretty worthless, while used records go for $20. newly manufactured reels go for $100. there's an appetite out there which is not explained by nostalgia or teenage retro oppositional disorder. Fast Fourier Transform initially hit big because of clarity and convenience, but it lacks some not easy to describe visceral fundamental that young ears find to be substantially more pleasing. kind of like how recent the flurry digital 3-D movies hasn't obtained a real solid toe-hold. they're interesting, but not as convincing as, say, one of Dali's old laser holograms. (i suspect holographics will eventually be THE satisfactory sensory reproductive medium, but the technology remains expensive and elusive. "Help me, Obi Wan Knobi. You're my only hope.")
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aciddose
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11529 posts since 7 Dec, 2004

Postby aciddose; Thu Feb 18, 2016 9:28 am Re: Analog modelling

rofl

Officer Max Walker, is that you?
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Miles1981
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1265 posts since 26 Apr, 2004, from UK

Postby Miles1981; Thu Feb 18, 2016 10:32 am Re: Analog modelling

buescher wrote:well, in terms of dollars and sense, a lot of stores have drastically reduced the number of CDs they stock, or eliminate them altogether. used CDs are pretty worthless, while used records go for $20. newly manufactured reels go for $100. there's an appetite out there which is not explained by nostalgia or teenage retro oppositional disorder. Fast Fourier Transform initially hit big because of clarity and convenience, but it lacks some not easy to describe visceral fundamental that young ears find to be substantially more pleasing. kind of like how recent the flurry digital 3-D movies hasn't obtained a real solid toe-hold. they're interesting, but not as convincing as, say, one of Dali's old laser holograms. (i suspect holographics will eventually be THE satisfactory sensory reproductive medium, but the technology remains expensive and elusive. "Help me, Obi Wan Knobi. You're my only hope.")

Not really. Vinyl have a lower bandwidth that CDs, less amplitude, more noise and less stability over time.
Their success is based on the fact that it's a nice object (with the box).
Max M.
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191 posts since 20 Apr, 2005, from Moscow, Evil Empire

Postby Max M.; Thu Feb 18, 2016 8:27 pm Re: Analog modelling

buescher wrote:... Fast Fourier Transform initially hit big ...

I don't think it ever makes sense to react to someone who really thinks "Digital = Fourier Transform" and "analog vs. digital" -> "CD vs. vinyl".
Stop this :cry:
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IncarnateX
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2762 posts since 25 Jan, 2009, from Forgotten Realms

Postby IncarnateX; Fri Feb 19, 2016 8:32 am Re: Analog modelling

A perfect emulation algorithm is one that is just close enough to an analog signal to convince your brain to say: "hey this sound is the same as this sound" . Unfortunately this closeness is relative. To some, a GUI that resembles the original is enough to convince their brains, others, e.g. Sound designers or engineers, need more auditory persuation, and to some, the sheer knowledge that the sources are different will be enough to convince their brains that the sources can never be the same. Finally, there are those who don't need simililarity in visuals or sounds at all to conclude they are the same as long as they do not run short of acid.

Then again: the closer you can get in sound and visuals, the more brains you should be able to convince. At least in theory. But try to apply that to the messed brains of musicians and it might fail, not matter what you do.
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toine6
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1267 posts since 28 Mar, 2002, from Salt Lake City, Utah - U.S.A.

Postby toine6; Fri Feb 19, 2016 9:42 am Re: Analog modelling

aciddose wrote:
Image



I showed this thread to my friend and he we were debating if that was the actress Olivia Wilde.
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whyterabbyt
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25125 posts since 3 Sep, 2001, from R'lyeh Oceanic Amusement Park and Funfair

Postby whyterabbyt; Fri Feb 19, 2016 10:11 am Re: Analog modelling

toine6 wrote:
aciddose wrote:
Image



I showed this thread to my friend and he we were debating if that was the actress Olivia Wilde.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Summer_Glau
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JoeCat
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1034 posts since 19 May, 2011, from North Carolina

Postby JoeCat; Fri Feb 19, 2016 10:38 am Re: Analog modelling

Bazille has the "Shake" slider on the spring reverb FX. I don't know that it's the most accurate spring reverb, but it's the most lovable - I knock it around once and a while to get the feel of knocking into my Crate amp during an 80's basement jam. A real spring reverb gives you the sense that it's a physical object, and is characterful. For a great number of people, establishing "character" is more important than the most accurate model.

For CD's, they had little physical presence and imbued (basically) no character on the sound; they sold for sound quality and the convenience, freedom from physical defects (skips aside, I purchased so many warped albums back in the day). Providing nothing over the content then, they offer little over digital downloads and streaming, unlike vinyl.

Same with e-books - I travel a lot and love the convenience of having a library in my iPad and Paperwhite, but still love physical books. Even the smell. If I were "modelling" an e-reader, I'd by looking into reproducing that smell of paper.

Probably why skeuomorphic design is still popular. The most accurate reproduction may not be as important as the feel of working with a physical object, even if not for nostalgic purposes. Not to suggest that a crappy sounding software Moog will serve if it looks and feels like one, but in the mix, "damn close" is often close enough. To say "it's a decent reproduction but looses it at high resonance", for example, still covers 95% of the bases for most people.

The wow and flutter modeling of tape machines reproductions, drift in Monark and Diva, etc., all serve to imbue those products with the character of their counterparts. Though I suppose if we really want to get that "analog feel" back, we'll have an option to "wait 10 minutes for warm-up to pitch" :)

I've been close to purchasing the GForce Oddity2 'cause it has that character. I suspect if the software ever had an option to randomly "break" the slider knobs off the interface, it'd be a no brainer :hyper:
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toine6
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1267 posts since 28 Mar, 2002, from Salt Lake City, Utah - U.S.A.

Postby toine6; Fri Feb 19, 2016 10:42 am Re: Analog modelling

whyterabbyt wrote:
toine6 wrote:
aciddose wrote:
Image



I showed this thread to my friend and he we were debating if that was the actress Olivia Wilde.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Summer_Glau


My friend think she's "close enough" to pass for Olivia though. ;)
Scoridd
KVRer
 
3 posts since 2 Nov, 2010

Postby Scoridd; Sat Feb 20, 2016 11:26 am Re: Analog modelling

Nah, she lacks definition in the top end
juha_p
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429 posts since 21 Feb, 2006, from FI

Postby juha_p; Tue Mar 22, 2016 6:17 am Re: Analog modelling

Fluky wrote:What techniques exist for analog modelling in the digital domain.
...


An example: http://www.chetgnegy.com/projects/weepingdemon.html
meneervermeer
KVRer
 
15 posts since 2 Aug, 2017

Postby meneervermeer; Tue Aug 22, 2017 7:39 am Re: Analog modelling

As a newcomer to DSP development, I might be wrong but so far what I've identified it's always a compromise between accuracy and speed. One can model the perfect analog signal response, but would need vast amounts of computing power to achieve this. SPLICE and MatLab offer great accuracy, but can't be used in a realtime environment. Therefore, more abstraction/simplifaction is needed in order to achieve a similar effect, using less resources.
And in a sense, if it already sounds great, why bother? I know it seems like modelling highly accurate and fast plugins seems like a holy grail, but it's a law of diminishing returns.

When using a modelled 303 in a track alongside 30 other (virtual) instruments, reverbed, eq'ed etc. who cares if it's not 100% accurate as a real 303? It's the end result that counts. I've made tracks using the inherently shitty Korg Electribe ER-1. The thing is glitchy, sounds tinny, and yet, I think that's part of the charm. Hell, I even went to an acid party where it was used to great effect, despite being dispised by many.
Also, one must not forget that analog gear wasn't always well received. The tr-808, tr-909 and tb-303 where once deemed flawed. It's only when people picked up these boxes for dirt cheap at local thrift stores and started creating hip hop and house, these machines gained in
popularity.

And that's my point. I think this obession to create perfect models is simply not justified. Especially when companies like Behringer bring out true analog replications of now beloved classics.
I think, than, the focus should be more on the strengths of digital signal generation. A great example is the Sylenth1. It doesn't have perfectly modelled analog signal generation, but it features 512 voices. Good luck doing that in analog hardware!

In conclusion, the race to perfect analog modelling is irrelevant. It's not important.
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whyterabbyt
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25125 posts since 3 Sep, 2001, from R'lyeh Oceanic Amusement Park and Funfair

Postby whyterabbyt; Tue Aug 22, 2017 7:50 am Re: Analog modelling

meneervermeer wrote:In conclusion, the race to perfect analog modelling is irrelevant. It's not important.

Well, it has to be said, in this race you came in 15 or so months after everyone else.... ;)
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antto
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2474 posts since 4 Sep, 2006, from 127.0.0.1

Postby antto; Tue Aug 22, 2017 8:25 am Re: Analog modelling

meneervermeer wrote:When using a modelled 303 in a track alongside 30 other (virtual) instruments, reverbed, eq'ed etc. who cares if it's not 100% accurate as a real 303? It's the end result that counts.

you're missing a little something - getting to the end result

the 303 sounds a certain way on its own
it also behaves a certain way (not just the synth, but also the sequencer and interface)
this has a real effect on the stuff you would and would not do with it

IMO there is a great amount of "feedback" during the music creation process, at least in my case (disclaimer: i'm not a real musician, i make electronic noises)
with "feedback" i mean the process of messing about with a sound, hearing it, in an iterative cycle
you know when you twist some parameter and it sounds nasty - you move away from that spot, and when you find some spot or some combination which sounds nice - you may get inspired and make a track out of, or around that ... IMO this is all feedback between the instrument(s) and the person operating them

in this sense, a more accurate model has a better chance to hit more of the same areas which the original hits

these are tiny, hard to measure things, but they are certainly there

of course you could re-create an existing track with a very poor model by brute-force methods, and end up with an audibly similar end result, but the creation process of the original track vs the brute-force recreation process will have a vast difference..
i'd think most people would prefer to have "fun" till they reach the end result, but i know there certainly are people who would have "fun" while brute-forcing a cover, for different reasons
It doesn't matter how it sounds..
..as long as it has BASS and it's LOUD!

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antto
KVRAF
 
2474 posts since 4 Sep, 2006, from 127.0.0.1

Postby antto; Tue Aug 22, 2017 8:35 am Re: Analog modelling

in other words, before you start modelling something by throwing virtual transistors into SPICE, i think you should step back and try to see if this something may have more to it than you initially thought

some people think of the 303 as simply something with a great filter
others think it's a collection of rare transistors
but it's actually much more than that
and it's funny how a relatively "simple" synth structure gets so misunderstood and underestimated

so, my point is.. you should try to figure out the actual important aspects of the whole thing
...which may go beyond the schematic and circuit board
It doesn't matter how it sounds..
..as long as it has BASS and it's LOUD!

irc.freenode.net >>> #kvr
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