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Sympathetic resonance

stratum
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1360 posts since 29 May, 2012

Postby stratum; Tue Oct 25, 2016 2:50 pm Re: Sympathetic resonance


This statement just proves my point. Stop, please. I'll vomit.



I'll stop wasting my time.
~stratum~
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aciddose
KVRAF
 
11570 posts since 7 Dec, 2004

Postby aciddose; Tue Oct 25, 2016 2:53 pm Re: Sympathetic resonance

I don't think you'll ever succeed in that so long as you continue existing.
stratum
KVRian
 
1360 posts since 29 May, 2012

Postby stratum; Tue Oct 25, 2016 11:07 pm Re: Sympathetic resonance

I don't think you'll ever succeed in that so long as you continue existing.


I remember somebody called xoxos who was sick of some forums not to be named. But I guess he wasn't actually sick of the forum, of just a few members, instead.
He was a bit difficult to understand, I have found most of his posts a little difficult to comprehend.
But I have nevertheless decided that this wasn't his fault.
Unlike him, I have opted out of existence here as you have recommended. You will not hear from me again.
If your miked acoustic guitar sounds like as if it is in your hands instead of being inside your head through a pair of headphones, then go and simulate some 'sympathetic resonance', as the low E resonates when the high one is being played, which is a great piece of missing sound. If not, put yor head through the O hole and try to play in that way.
~stratum~
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aciddose
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11570 posts since 7 Dec, 2004

Postby aciddose; Tue Oct 25, 2016 11:41 pm Re: Sympathetic resonance

Your ignorance is stunning.

The fact that your life and anything you do in it is ultimately meaningless applies equally to everyone.

I was only pointing out the fact that your disparaging of the OP's interest in this topic is extremely disingenuous.

So what if there are no "tourists" on the moon. Do you actually think that was the sort of goal we had in mind? A tourist is someone who has too much money and too much time on their hands who wants to escape from their own menial existence temporarily. In other words someone extremely weak with little willpower to overcome the obstacles in their life preventing them from living in a reality they feel is fulfilling. A tourist's experience is ephemeral and meaningless unless it provides for an accumulation of experience which leads them in a new direction in life.

What about seeking out new horizons? Where does the sun go to sleep? Oh, but that's all a waste of time and completely unnecessary isn't it?

You worry about how you waste your time, I'll worry about how I waste mine.

The Devil's Dictionary wrote:A busy man complained one day:
"I get no time!" "What's that you say?"
Cried out his friend, a lazy quiz;
"You have, sir, all the time there is.
There's plenty, too, and don't you doubt it—
We're never for an hour without it."

Purzil Crofe.
hugoderwolf
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168 posts since 1 Apr, 2009, from Bochum, Germany

Postby hugoderwolf; Tue Oct 25, 2016 11:58 pm Re: Sympathetic resonance

Guys, grow up and continue fighting by PM if you absolutely can't let go of each other. This could be a very interesting discussion.

A big issue with sympathetic resonance is that it isn't just resonators that are excited by the strings that are played. The thing is that these are lots of coupled resonators, and if that's not enough nonlinearly so.

It even starts with the three strings of a key. Through the coupling they lock their closely spaced resonances in to each other. So the actual tone in a well tuned piano has nearly no beating, although the strings aren't perfectly in tune. The beating only starts if they are too much out of tune.

What the slight detuning of the strings mainly does is control the two-stage envelope of the tone (how loud it is in the beginning, and how long it decays in the late part).

Check this out:
https://www.speech.kth.se/music/5_lectu ... nreic.html

This means for sympathetic resonance that the original tone is also affected by the resonances (the "passive" resonating strings take energy out of the "active" note and thus alter its envelope).
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aciddose
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11570 posts since 7 Dec, 2004

Postby aciddose; Wed Oct 26, 2016 12:21 am Re: Sympathetic resonance

hugoderwolf; I agree that it is a very interesting topic, although the OP seemed to be looking more for advice on how to achieve a passable result rather than a deep discussion on the inner workings.

I believe anyone serious about keyboard instruments who has played a variety of pianos (just visit a good size >40 shop!) should understand the huge differences in instruments. There are so many complex factors at play I suspect even the most skilled engineers designing such instruments regularly discover something new.

Regarding your comment about coupled resonators; this is exactly what I was referring to when I described a simplified model based upon "wave-guides" (delay-lines) is only a very poor approximation. Not only are resonators at play, every component of the instrument including the body and components of the action right down to the keys themselves play an influence. You mention absorption: some components might be thought of as creating spectral notches rather than peaks, essentially doing the opposite people would at first assume to be the case with a resonator like a string.

There are of course always questions of diminishing returns. Then again for the people interested in this topic it hardly matters whether some random sample will distinguish A from B in a double-blind test or so on. Being able to examine the amazing emergent complexity resulting from such a seemingly simple instrument can be extremely fulfilling in itself.

I believe a conscious fine-tuning of many of the components such that they "line up together" in a well made piano is what contributes to the differences in sound via reinforcement of these effects.
wavesfactory
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282 posts since 12 May, 2010

Postby wavesfactory; Wed Oct 26, 2016 11:54 pm Re: Sympathetic resonance

If you mean the string resonances produced when the sustain pedal is down, you can simulate it by recording an impulse response of the piano with the pedal down.
Apply the impulse on pedal down with a fade-in and cut it when the pedal is up.

If you mean the string resonances produced when you have individual notes held down and you play the same note or the 5th an octave higher or lower... that would create copies of the held note at lower volumes.
- Wavesfactory.
Audio Miracles.
https://www.wavesfactory.com
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Chris-S
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2331 posts since 10 Nov, 2013, from Germany

Postby Chris-S; Thu Oct 27, 2016 12:03 am Re: Sympathetic resonance

flakes2 wrote:Physical modeling would be possible, but this is overkill on a piano

Why overkill? Plugins like Pianoteq show that it makes very sense.
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flakes2
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163 posts since 29 Nov, 2012, from My home is my castle

Postby flakes2; Thu Oct 27, 2016 11:48 pm Re: Sympathetic resonance

Please continue arguing via PM. Lets get back to the topic:
I was asking for an efficient way to simulate sympathetic resonance.
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fmr
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6440 posts since 16 Mar, 2003, from Porto - Portugal

Postby fmr; Fri Oct 28, 2016 12:06 am Re: Sympathetic resonance

Define efficient... And maybe you should ask Moddart, although I doubt they will unveil their secrets to you :hihi:
Fernando (FMR)
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kryptonaut
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701 posts since 25 Apr, 2011

Postby kryptonaut; Fri Oct 28, 2016 12:51 am Re: Sympathetic resonance

I've never tried it, but if you were looking for something that had the flavour of sympathetic resonance but without going the full modelling route, how about adding a little 'kick' to the envelopes of any currently-held notes whenever a new note is played, with the size of the kick depending on both the velocity of the new note and how close it is harmonically to each held note. That might get you something that sounds better than nothing.

For modelling the sustain pedal, I think a convolution reverb effect might be useful to simulate all the strings resonating.
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fmr
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6440 posts since 16 Mar, 2003, from Porto - Portugal

Postby fmr; Fri Oct 28, 2016 9:35 am Re: Sympathetic resonance

kryptonaut wrote:I've never tried it, but if you were looking for something that had the flavour of sympathetic resonance but without going the full modelling route, how about adding a little 'kick' to the envelopes of any currently-held notes whenever a new note is played, with the size of the kick depending on both the velocity of the new note and how close it is harmonically to each held note. That might get you something that sounds better than nothing.

Sorry, but I fail to see how this will come with something resembling sympathetic resonance :?:

kryptonaut wrote: For modelling the sustain pedal, I think a convolution reverb effect might be useful to simulate all the strings resonating.
This is the approach being followed by some sample library makers. It's simplistic, to say the least. The best I can say of it is that it's better than nothing. But to come up with something more realistic, you would have to sample an impulse for EACH note of the piano, and activate the proper impulses when each key is played and pedalled. And for that you'd have to find a way to balance the overall volume (just thinking loud).
Fernando (FMR)
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Richard_Synapse
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782 posts since 19 Dec, 2010

Postby Richard_Synapse; Sat Oct 29, 2016 6:45 am Re: Sympathetic resonance

stratum wrote:A piano is something quite different, obviously. Yet from a customer perspective the fact that remains is that a piano recording does not sound like a piano through a pair of PC speakers. Through an headphone, it's much better, but not quite the same, something is still missing, a good hifi set at about the right volume level adjusted and positioned properly would be closer, yet in that case most people would prefer the sound of a real but somewhat cheap Chinese piano to a VST emulating the sound of, say, Steinway.


When modeling something, whether it's a piano, guitar, trumpet, drum kit or whatever the reference has to be a digital recording, not some live performance. Your point seems to be that it's better to listen to say a classic orchestra in a real hall than to listen to a CD recording at home. That may be true of course, but is ihmo irrelevant for both music producers & plugin developers.

Richard

p.s. I cannot reply to your PM because it seems you have disabled PMs.
Synapse Audio Software - www.synapse-audio.com
JCJR
KVRAF
 
2199 posts since 17 Apr, 2005, from S.E. TN

Postby JCJR; Sat Oct 29, 2016 11:09 am Re: Sympathetic resonance

Slightly pcking a very small nit from the first page, not necessarily related to sympathetic resonance--

It is near impossible to make all three piano note treble strings or the two mid strings "perfectly in tune". With skill a piano tuning hammer can be tweaked "real close" but perfect unisons would be very difficult. Moreover, even if you get a "perfect unison" then after all the other notes have been tuned then your first perfect unison probably isn't perfect any more, and will gradually become even less perfect with the passage of hours, days and months. Even if you tune the beast every day it is never in perfect tune. :)

Another problem is consistency of materials. Wound strings are difficult to make perfectly consistent, and this is true even with the un-wound piano wire. The un-wound piano wire comes on big spools. If you for instance restring a piano, where all three strands of a unison are consecutive pieces of steel wire off the same roll, the three strings will not be musically identical. A certain percentage of the individual strings will have an enharmonic beat EVEN IF ONLY THE ONE STRING IS UNMUTED. It is rather difficult to tune a beatless three string unison if even individual solo strings can have beats.

There are various piano tuner tricks to try to charm a string to have fewer solo beats. At worst case if a string is real dissonant, you can try replacing the string in hope that the next piece of wire off the spool will be better behaved. OTOH it might be somewhat an interaction between the harp, soundboard and bridge at that location. In which case the new piece of steel wire might behave as nasty as the old piece.
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kryptonaut
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701 posts since 25 Apr, 2011

Postby kryptonaut; Sun Oct 30, 2016 7:26 am Re: Sympathetic resonance

fmr wrote:
kryptonaut wrote:I've never tried it, but if you were looking for something that had the flavour of sympathetic resonance but without going the full modelling route, how about adding a little 'kick' to the envelopes of any currently-held notes whenever a new note is played, with the size of the kick depending on both the velocity of the new note and how close it is harmonically to each held note. That might get you something that sounds better than nothing.

Sorry, but I fail to see how this will come with something resembling sympathetic resonance :?:


Well, the OP was asking for shortcuts that didn't go as far as physical modelling. Sympathetic resonance includes the vibrations of other strings in response to sound coming from struck keys.

In a piano, strings whose keys are not held down are damped so will only resonate a little. Strings whose keys are held down are not damped, so will vibrate sympathetically if a 'harmonically near' note is sounded. I suggest that one way to simulate this might be to re-excite the envelopes of held-down keys when a new note is struck, with the excitation level depending on the proximity (both physically and harmonically) to the struck note.
It would be relatively inexpensive to do, and would hopefully be better than nothing.
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