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Sympathetic resonance

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aciddose
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11570 posts since 7 Dec, 2004

Postby aciddose; Sun Oct 30, 2016 12:21 pm Re: Sympathetic resonance

I don't think we're sensitive enough to such tiny changes in amplitude to pick up that effect unless it was exaggerated quite a bit beyond the amplitude change due to harmonic peaks in other strings.

We are sensitive enough to 500 Hz - 5000 Hz to pick up slight changes in resonances due to it being our vocal range.
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aciddose
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11570 posts since 7 Dec, 2004

Postby aciddose; Sun Oct 30, 2016 12:30 pm Re: Sympathetic resonance

What you could do instead is take into account lower strings which would resonate at frequencies where harmonics of the low string come close (is it a cosine raised to nth power shaped function?) to a harmonic of the higher strings.

You could have a precomputed table for each note. If the note released matched any resonant sustaining notes, the release could be sustained at a level computed via combination of the values in the table for time and frequency. A simple low-pass or high-pass filter could be applied during the "post-release sustain" to mimic the frequency selective effect albeit with only very poor accuracy.

The filter could be engaged with an equal power crossfade shaped by the release portion for the envelope of the solo note (as if resonance hadn't been accounted for.)
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daz.diamond
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1434 posts since 29 Jan, 2008, from Arboretum Avenue

Postby daz.diamond; Sun Oct 30, 2016 4:00 pm Re: Sympathetic resonance

just a thought, and I'm probably wrong, but don't the recent yamaha clavinovas have a setting for sympathetic resonance that uses some form of convolution switched depending on which keys are depressed ?
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solomute
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145 posts since 29 Mar, 2017

Postby solomute; Thu Nov 30, 2017 5:26 am Re: Sympathetic resonance

There is no SR when mixing tracks in daws and no one implements this...
Digital performer 9.5 and samplitude are best sounding in my opinion nowadays.
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whyterabbyt
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25242 posts since 3 Sep, 2001, from R'lyeh Oceanic Amusement Park and Funfair

Postby whyterabbyt; Thu Nov 30, 2017 5:46 am Re: Sympathetic resonance

solomute wrote:There is no SR when mixing tracks in daws and no one implements this...


nor should there be.
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solomute
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145 posts since 29 Mar, 2017

Postby solomute; Fri Dec 01, 2017 4:46 am Re: Sympathetic resonance

nor should there be.

I doubt that. All other things don't glue instrument together. This is the only natural way to make istruments interact with each other
Digital performer 9.5 and samplitude are best sounding in my opinion nowadays.
matt42
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944 posts since 9 Jan, 2006

Postby matt42; Fri Dec 01, 2017 5:06 am Re: Sympathetic resonance

solomute wrote:
nor should there be.

I doubt that. All other things don't glue instrument together. This is the only natural way to make istruments interact with each other

Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
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BertKoor
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10100 posts since 8 Mar, 2005, from Utrecht, Holland

Postby BertKoor; Fri Dec 01, 2017 6:23 am Re: Sympathetic resonance

On a real drum kit, you'll hear the snares underneath the snare rattle when for instance the base player hits a note.
So to simulate that on a virtual drum kit you'd need an extra input for generating the sympathetic resonances.

It's instruments interacting with each other because they are in the same room. A mixing engine can't do that :shrug:
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whyterabbyt
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25242 posts since 3 Sep, 2001, from R'lyeh Oceanic Amusement Park and Funfair

Postby whyterabbyt; Fri Dec 01, 2017 6:42 am Re: Sympathetic resonance

solomute wrote:
nor should there be.

I doubt that.


Doesn't make any difference. Its not a DAW's job.

This is the only natural way to make istruments interact with each other


Even if that were true, it doesnt make it something a DAW should be doing.

And if your yardstick is 'natural', when you're talking about simulations of acoustic sympathetic resonances of multiple real instruments plus the necessary room and environment modelling then you're in a problem space way beyond that of even the most complex reverbs just for some relatively minor acoustic artefacts.

And if its not for real acoustic instruments, its not natural anyway. :shrug:
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kamalmanzukie
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92 posts since 12 May, 2012

Postby kamalmanzukie; Sat Dec 02, 2017 12:33 pm Re: Sympathetic resonance

i did this in reaktor for a sitar once, a bank of tuned drone strings, and then you need to excite them with the output of the melody string, fed through some kind of body resonator (or just excite the melody string with an impulse response of the body for commuted waveguide) and then this usually needs some kind of noiseification before exiting the drone to decouple the frequencies a bit. i think this last part might kind of approximate the distance from bridge/complexity of frequencies bouncing everywhere.

i had it probably one of the best synthesized sitar sounds id ever heard until it crashed, and i never was able to get it quite the same. sad days
solomute
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145 posts since 29 Mar, 2017

Postby solomute; Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:43 am Re: Sympathetic resonance

i had it probably one of the best synthesized sitar sounds id ever heard until it crashed, and i never was able to get it quite the same. sad days

Sad to hear. Perhaps you should continue your experiments. Using IRs is a nice idea. Nebula has dynamic or call it multiple-in-one IRs which could be somehow used for implementation of SR between tracks. Currently they have issued harrison mixbuss emulating entire console, ie there are no obstacles for them to make SR between tracks. But I suspect they keep that niche for the future. For some years they will play with pianoteq project totally ignoring the thing in question and may be if our civilization is still alive they will take the burden. Once there was a project where one guy created SR scripts for kontakt piano libs. Then mysteriously the project was shut down. You can find his script in piano old lady kontakt which has no gui. The same thing can be implemented as intertracktial thing between different instruments but I bet there is taboo on that. They make only allowed things like pianoteq and I don't believe they are so silly that they have not thought about the possibility to make SR between tracks. There are hw SR modules and hw are not so powerful as pcs.
Digital performer 9.5 and samplitude are best sounding in my opinion nowadays.
solomute
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145 posts since 29 Mar, 2017

Postby solomute; Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:51 am Re: Sympathetic resonance

So to simulate that on a virtual drum kit you'd need an extra input for generating the sympathetic resonances.

There are no obstacles to create intertracktial tunnels which is implemented in harrison mixbuss, sknote stripbus and other software consoles. Also I may agree that it's not necesarrily the daw's engine's duty to produce SR between tracks as all this can be implemented the same way as on the aforementioned consoles as optional vsts. The niche is non occupied and no one wants to earn money. Unbelievable unless we suspect that that process is controlled from above.
Digital performer 9.5 and samplitude are best sounding in my opinion nowadays.
hugoderwolf
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168 posts since 1 Apr, 2009, from Bochum, Germany

Postby hugoderwolf; Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:59 am Re: Sympathetic resonance

solomute wrote:There are no obstacles to create intertracktial tunnels which is implemented in harrison mixbuss, sknote stripbus and other software consoles. Also I may agree that it's not necesarrily the daw's engine's duty to produce SR between tracks as all this can be implemented the same way as on the aforementioned consoles as optional vsts. The niche is non occupied and no one wants to earn money. Unbelievable unless we suspect that that process is controlled from above.


What are the "intertracktial tunnels" supposed to actually do? What do you think sympathetic resonance in a mixer should sound like?

Might be that you are imagining some kind of magic phenomenon that doesn't exist. The thing is, sympathetic resonance is not just about a couple of audio signals somehow interacting. It doesn't work without an instrument that resonates. And the way it resonates depends massively on what this instrument is and how it works acoustically and mechanically. In a piano for example, it depends on which keys are pressed.

That said, I think some company already made a piano reverb that sounds like a resonating sustain-pedaled piano. But that's about it. You could put something like that in the sum to get some kind of piano-style sympathetic resonance. For a more sophisticated approach, you'd need a similar thing, but one which you can feed MIDI to switch individual resonators on/off.

You could also experiment with long held piano chords as impulse responses in an IR reverb.

In essence: sympathetic resonance is for instruments, not for mixers.
cron
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2872 posts since 27 Dec, 2002, from North East England

Postby cron; Sat Dec 09, 2017 4:02 pm Re: Sympathetic resonance

hugoderwolf wrote:You could also experiment with long held piano chords as impulse responses in an IR reverb.


You can get lovely sounds doing this.

Here's an example which crossfades across 10 IRs. The 10s IRs are all different plucked guitar harmonics, and the sound they're applied to is a scrambled, ring modulated guitar. The ring modulated guitar is completely inharmonic, so all the consonant resonances you hear are coming from the IRs.

https://soundcloud.com/chqtestsubjects/ ... on-example
JCJR
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2199 posts since 17 Apr, 2005, from S.E. TN

Postby JCJR; Sun Dec 10, 2017 9:49 am Re: Sympathetic resonance

BertKoor wrote:On a real drum kit, you'll hear the snares underneath the snare rattle when for instance the base player hits a note.
So to simulate that on a virtual drum kit you'd need an extra input for generating the sympathetic resonances.

It's instruments interacting with each other because they are in the same room. A mixing engine can't do that :shrug:

Perhaps I was lacking in musical imagination, but ringing drums in recordings (or excessively ringing drums in live mixes) generally drove me nuts. Something to be avoided rather than intentionally added.

Maybe ringing toms could be fairly easy-- If toms were tuned well, so far as I recall they had a fairly pure fundamental tone. If not tuned well, they might have a fundamental tone with tremolo-like beat frequencies superimposed. Bwaw-waw-waw-waw.

So maybe if we want to De-Clarify an electric bass track by adding "well-tuned" ringing toms, then perhaps a simple parallel filterbank of high-Q ringing bandpass filters would do? One bandpass for each tom, tuned to whatever fundamental freq which each tom in the rack would be tuned at? For a rack of out-of-tune toms, perhaps we could get close with a pair of ringing bandpass filters per tom?

Perhaps ringing toms have some "gated" nonlinearity in response, just a wild guess. MAYBE a quiet note wouldn't have enough energy to get a tom going, so that they would tend to ring more on loud notes, and maybe ring little or none on quiet notes? Dunno, would be worth checking.

For a "better" simulation, maybe put each ringing filter thru its own SM57 mic model mixing all the mic simulations together with different time delays and inter-drum phase cancellations. And of course each tom mic model would not only be picking up a different time-and-phase mixed image of all the toms, but each tom mic model would be picking up a different time and EQ version of the bass guitar leaking into the tom mics. :)

So the electric bass signal is one track direct, one track miked amp, and many weird copies of the bass guitar leaking into the tom mics, along with the tom sympathetic ringing. Lets not forget the kick and overhead mics picking up different EQ, phase and delay copies of the bass guitar leakage.

Maybe modeling a ringing snare would be harder to do. Dunno. Maybe that is a more nonlinear system. OTOH if the snares rattle about the same pitch regardless what pitch they resonate against-- Haven't listened lately but it seemed that snare tended to make the same tone of sympathetic rattle regardless of stimulus note--

If that is the case, then maybe the Bass Guitar send could be rectified into a control envelope, then use that control envelope to modulate the volume up-n-down of a long looped rattling snare sample? Any time the bass is loud the snare rattle is loud and vice-versa.
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