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Markus Krause
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32 posts since 2 Jul, 2018

Postby Markus Krause; Mon Jul 09, 2018 11:20 am Will VST3 plugins stop working with the next macOS udates?

The VST3 format has been released a long time ago, but it still has not properly established on the market. There are still many host which do not support it. There do seem to be also technical problems with compatibity and graphic card drivers.

But now it seems to come even worse (please correct me if i should be wrong).

The GUI library of VST3 uses OpenGL.

With macOS 10.14 Apple told that OpenGL will be depracted.
https://developer.apple.com/macos/whats-new/

As a result VST3 plugins which use OpenGL could stop working with the next OS updates. Apple has shown that they kick deprecated technologies quickly and without consideration for losses.

What do you think about it?
hibrasil
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764 posts since 23 Jun, 2002, from Huddersfield, UK

Postby hibrasil; Mon Jul 09, 2018 11:44 am Re: Will VST3 plugins stop working with the next macOS udates?

no. Pretty sure OpenGL will continue to work for the next few macOS's. In any case you are incorrect about VST3 and OpenGL... VST3 can use whatever for it's GUI just like any other plugin format. VSTGUI can have an OpenGL window, but it's not all OpenGL
Last edited by hibrasil on Mon Jul 09, 2018 11:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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groovyomega
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24 posts since 3 Jul, 2018

Postby groovyomega; Mon Jul 09, 2018 11:46 am Re: Will VST3 plugins stop working with the next macOS udates?

I think they'll still be running under macOS 10.14.
Apps built using OpenGL and OpenCL will continue to run in macOS 10.14

However, I think the message is clear. Looking for another solution (switching to Metal) now - because after 10.14 there probably will be some real cut one day.
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vortico
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146 posts since 19 Jul, 2008

Postby vortico; Mon Jul 09, 2018 1:42 pm Re: Will VST3 plugins stop working with the next macOS udates?

OpenGL is completely unrelated to VST3. The API offers a native window handle just like VST2, which can use any rendering method available on your operating system.

The discussion of OpenGL going away on Mac is already discussed extensively in this thread. http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... 3&t=505956
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Markus Krause
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32 posts since 2 Jul, 2018

Postby Markus Krause; Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:54 pm Re: Will VST3 plugins stop working with the next macOS udates?

It still seems unclear to me. Will existing VST3 plugins which use OpenGL on the Mac require an update when Apple decides to remove OpenGL support completely?
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EvilDragon
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16471 posts since 6 Jan, 2009, from Croatia

Postby EvilDragon; Mon Jul 09, 2018 11:26 pm Re: Will VST3 plugins stop working with the next macOS udates?

Yes, if eventually Apple completely removes OGL support (which would be pretty stupid, but then again Apple is not afraid of doing exactly that, everyone else be damned), then plugins using OGL would need to be updated.
quikquak
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371 posts since 6 Aug, 2005, from England

Postby quikquak; Mon Jul 09, 2018 11:52 pm Re: Will VST3 plugins stop working with the next macOS udates?

EvilDragon wrote:Yes, if eventually Apple completely removes OGL support (which would be pretty stupid, but then again Apple is not afraid of doing exactly that, everyone else be damned), then plugins using OGL would need to be updated.

The beauty of having your own walled garden is that you can grow what you want in it. Meanwhile the outside world continues, and I wish them all the luck.
I’ve been wondering what Chrome browser will do, and all those people that rely on WebGL...it feels like a slightly different mess than missing Adobe ‘Flash’
stratum
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1848 posts since 29 May, 2012

Postby stratum; Tue Jul 10, 2018 3:41 am Re: Will VST3 plugins stop working with the next macOS udates?

On Windows Chrome already uses a wrapper named "Angle" (wraps OpenGL to DirectX) and apparently there is a commercial wrapper for Metal also. https://moltengl.com/ (the one that was just recently rejected from appstore for containing accidentally added "private" symbols - they couldn't get any better advertisement in any other way.)
~stratum~
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EvilDragon
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16471 posts since 6 Jan, 2009, from Croatia

Postby EvilDragon; Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:06 am Re: Will VST3 plugins stop working with the next macOS udates?

quikquak wrote:The beauty of having your own walled garden is that you can grow what you want in it.


Eventually, Apple is gonna make another huge blunder that will cost them billions. Eventually. Just you wait. Then they'll again need to be saved from the brink of bankrupcy by MS. :lol:
Benutzername
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272 posts since 23 Jan, 2008, from Hamburg, Germany

Postby Benutzername; Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:23 am Re: Will VST3 plugins stop working with the next macOS udates?

This removal is part of a regular service from Apple for all users and especially for all developers.

When old applications don't work anymore with current OS versions then all users will be forced to buy new versions and updates for many applications. This means regular income for the developers. Apple on the other hand doesn't need to stay backwards compatible at all and this reduces development time a lot. Users are happy because they constantly get new toys to play with.

So removal of OpenGL is great! Can't wait to see what they change next round.
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EvilDragon
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16471 posts since 6 Jan, 2009, from Croatia

Postby EvilDragon; Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:49 am Re: Will VST3 plugins stop working with the next macOS udates?

No that means regular tedious modifications for the developers that were in a lot of cases absolutely uncalled for (latest example: file sorting issue with APFS on High Sierra they forced onto developers to "fix" instead of not messing it up in the first place. Dumbasses.). OpenGL works, it has worked for years and it will continue to work for years. Just not on Apple. Dumbasses.
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Audiority
KVRian
 
706 posts since 15 Nov, 2005, from Italy

Postby Audiority; Fri Jul 13, 2018 2:36 am Re: Will VST3 plugins stop working with the next macOS udates?

Mario, don't forget they'll switch from Intel CPUs to their own on 2020. That's a story already seen.. :\
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stratum
KVRAF
 
1848 posts since 29 May, 2012

Postby stratum; Fri Jul 13, 2018 4:15 am Re: Will VST3 plugins stop working with the next macOS udates?

Audiority wrote:... don't forget they'll switch from Intel CPUs to their own on 2020. That's a story already seen.. :\


If you buy the idea that the future is wireless(*), that may be understandable (after all intel cpus are not power efficient), but unexplainable network delays involved in posting this message took me about 1.5 minutes because in this country internet service providers prefer to pocket the profits instead of investing in what can increase bandwidth and their fiber lines are only useful for their own TV subscription offers, so it looks like our future is desktop computing for the next several years.

(*) https://www.theverge.com/2018/4/3/17191 ... ompetition
~stratum~
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EvilDragon
KVRAF
 
16471 posts since 6 Jan, 2009, from Croatia

Postby EvilDragon; Fri Jul 13, 2018 5:09 am Re: Will VST3 plugins stop working with the next macOS udates?

stratum wrote:(after all intel cpus are not power efficient)


They certainly do have power efficient CPUs in their product range. Compute Stick?
Benutzername
KVRist
 
272 posts since 23 Jan, 2008, from Hamburg, Germany

Postby Benutzername; Fri Jul 13, 2018 5:37 am Re: Will VST3 plugins stop working with the next macOS udates?

But Intel CPUs are not produced by Apple and they are expensive. This makes it very difficult to keep the prices for Apple products as low as they are now on the long run.

Sarcasm aside, I believe that leaving the x86 platform will also be the end of software installations without going through the app store. This means that users will have to buy most of the software again while Apple gets 30% from every app purchase, every plugin purchase, every update purchase and every sound set purchase. Apple will also be the only one who decides which software gets the permission to run on your computer. If Apple doesn't like a particular piece of software or if it's a competing product to one of Apple's products then you are out of luck (and maybe out of business).

So from Apple's point of view replacing the Intel CPUs with ARM CPUs really is the natural choice.
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