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jancivil
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15092 posts since 20 Oct, 2007, from No Location

Postby jancivil; Wed Mar 07, 2018 6:15 pm Re: Real versus Sampled drums: the neglected flamewar.

herodotus wrote:
jancivil wrote:I hear what you are saying: "But there are subtleties" - yes. but it's usually not happening. It's the same with any vi.

I would say, rather, that they happen all of the time, but that no one really cares about these subtle details. I am not even sure that I care about them, at least for my own music.

"not happening" is just a figure of speech. I'm a beatnik or something. :shrug:

We're saying the same thing but at cross-purposes now, not sure why. I care more than anybody around about it probably. I don't find your super-exotic scenarios that exotic really, in fact.
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herodotus
KVRAF
 
5468 posts since 8 Dec, 2004, from The Twin Cities

Postby herodotus; Thu Mar 08, 2018 6:31 am Re: Real versus Sampled drums: the neglected flamewar.

jancivil wrote:
herodotus wrote:
jancivil wrote:I hear what you are saying: "But there are subtleties" - yes. but it's usually not happening. It's the same with any vi.

I would say, rather, that they happen all of the time, but that no one really cares about these subtle details. I am not even sure that I care about them, at least for my own music.

"not happening" is just a figure of speech. I'm a beatnik or something. :shrug:

We're saying the same thing but at cross-purposes now, not sure why.


Because WAR!! That's why.

I don't find your super-exotic scenarios that exotic really, in fact.


Drummers, since the very beginning of the drum kit, have been individualistic as a matter of necessity. Drum kits started as collections of drums and cymbals that were not designed to be used together in the way that they were. And to this day, there is no standard drum kit in the way that there is a standard piano or a standard tenor saxophone. There is no standard repertoire for the drum kit, nor a collection of skills that you need to master to call yourself a kit drummer.

This makes sampling a drum kit a bit different from sampling a piano.
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Aloysius
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21904 posts since 11 Aug, 2008, from a computer

Postby Aloysius; Thu Mar 08, 2018 7:55 am Re: Real versus Sampled drums: the neglected flamewar.

When live drums are recorded, they become samples, so who cares? Make love, not war.
I didn't get where I am today.
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pljones
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6244 posts since 8 Feb, 2003, from London, UK

Postby pljones; Thu Mar 08, 2018 11:34 am Re: Real versus Sampled drums: the neglected flamewar.

When sampled drums are triggered and the performance recorded, that becomes a recording... ;P
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el-bo (formerly ebow)
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10489 posts since 24 May, 2009, from A galaxy, far far away

Postby el-bo (formerly ebow); Thu Mar 08, 2018 11:47 am Re: Real versus Sampled drums: the neglected flamewar.

herodotus wrote:The only way to do it would be to design the sample set around their idiosyncrasies from the bottom up. And why would anyone put that amount of work into such a niche product?


Exactly! So, sampled drums are not inherently worse. All that is required is for the kits, hits, articulations, velocities, round-robin's etc. to be recorded. The end market demand will likely resign it to 'labour of love' status, but it is not really so difficult if you already have everything in place for that kind of thing :tu:
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Sampleconstruct
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14091 posts since 12 Oct, 2008, from Here and there

Postby Sampleconstruct; Thu Mar 08, 2018 12:00 pm Re: Real versus Sampled drums: the neglected flamewar.

I'm in the process of mixing some studio sessions my brother and I did together with a 7-piece band including two drummers. Phase-aligning all those mic signals, coping with the cross-feed, deleting all those untight kicks and rim shots, what a PITA...

No, actually it's awesome and I love the combo of two drummers, even when played a bit sloppy...
D-Fusion
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3369 posts since 13 Jul, 2004, from Earth

Postby D-Fusion; Thu Mar 08, 2018 12:04 pm Re: Real versus Sampled drums: the neglected flamewar.

Sampled drums makes you fat and Real drums makes you fit :)
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Hink
Rad Grandad
 
27128 posts since 5 Sep, 2003, from Downeast Maine

Postby Hink; Thu Mar 08, 2018 12:50 pm Re: Real versus Sampled drums: the neglected flamewar.

D-Fusion wrote:Sampled drums makes you fat and Real drums makes you fit :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-te49oUpo4

ftr I am in no way passing judgment nor am I calling anyone names, they made the video, they named it and they put it on youtube :shrug: I felt obligated to share this find which also just might speak to my point of what happens when there is a drumset in the room and the attraction there of...I apologize for the sound quality, it's not your speakers :ud:
got any good fish stories? Let minnow
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herodotus
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5468 posts since 8 Dec, 2004, from The Twin Cities

Postby herodotus; Thu Mar 08, 2018 3:22 pm Re: Real versus Sampled drums: the neglected flamewar.

Aloysius wrote:When live drums are recorded, they become samples, so who cares? Make love, not war.


Oh, I see. First you want to exile drummers from the company of other musicians, and now you wuss out when it gets a little rough?


(In case it isn't obvious, the words written above are not to be taken seriously.)
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herodotus
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5468 posts since 8 Dec, 2004, from The Twin Cities

Postby herodotus; Thu Mar 08, 2018 3:34 pm Re: Real versus Sampled drums: the neglected flamewar.

el-bo (formerly ebow) wrote:
herodotus wrote:The only way to do it would be to design the sample set around their idiosyncrasies from the bottom up. And why would anyone put that amount of work into such a niche product?


Exactly! So, sampled drums are not inherently worse. All that is required is for the kits, hits, articulations, velocities, round-robin's etc. to be recorded. The end market demand will likely resign it to 'labour of love' status, but it is not really so difficult if you already have everything in place for that kind of thing :tu:


Well it isn't just making the samples, it's mapping them in a practical way that can be played by people with only two hands and ten fingers.

But I will acknowledge that the only thing standing in the way of a sample set that accurately captures the sound of Bill Bruford's drumming is about 500 man hours of unpaid labor.

Easy Peasy.
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jancivil
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15092 posts since 20 Oct, 2007, from No Location

Postby jancivil; Thu Mar 08, 2018 6:41 pm Re: Real versus Sampled drums: the neglected flamewar.

herodotus wrote:There is no standard repertoire for the drum kit, nor a collection of skills that you need to master to call yourself a kit drummer.

If you can't hack Mary, Mary by the Monkees you aren't so much a drummer.
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jancivil
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15092 posts since 20 Oct, 2007, from No Location

Postby jancivil; Thu Mar 08, 2018 6:44 pm Re: Real versus Sampled drums: the neglected flamewar.

D-Fusion wrote:Sampled drums makes you fat and Real drums makes you fit :)

fat IS fit

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQJHOAkbb_g
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pljones
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6244 posts since 8 Feb, 2003, from London, UK

Postby pljones; Thu Mar 08, 2018 11:18 pm Re: Real versus Sampled drums: the neglected flamewar.

Can we start on brush kits now?
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Russell Grand
KVRian
 
1253 posts since 22 May, 2017

Postby Russell Grand; Fri Mar 09, 2018 12:31 am Re: Real versus Sampled drums: the neglected flamewar.

el-bo (formerly ebow) wrote:
herodotus wrote:Sampled Drums will never be able to replace a Real Drum performance


Two different things. The sounds are not the performance.

I'd take David 'Fingers' Haynes on a drum machine over an amateur with 20gig of multi-sampled kit:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oThXwURLLhs


Damn, he's awesome! :hail:
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el-bo (formerly ebow)
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10489 posts since 24 May, 2009, from A galaxy, far far away

Postby el-bo (formerly ebow); Fri Mar 09, 2018 12:48 am Re: Real versus Sampled drums: the neglected flamewar.

pljones wrote:Can we start on brush kits now?


Oh shit! I completely forgot about that brush-kit thread :oops:
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