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Mushy Mushy
KVRAF
 
8816 posts since 6 Sep, 2008

Postby Mushy Mushy; Sat Dec 01, 2012 1:54 am

IncarnateX wrote:
Mushy Mushy wrote:Lawyers don't work for free mate.


Oh like all nerds they love to use their skills and if they are KVRAFs in addition, the chance they will post seems high to me.
Hmmm I'm trying to be constructive as promised.
There's no need for the subtle attack :roll:
"I was wondering if you'd like to try Magic Mushrooms"
"Oooh I dont know. Sounds a bit scary"
"It's not scary. You just lose a sense of who you are and all that sh!t"
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IncarnateX
KVRAF
 
2762 posts since 25 Jan, 2009, from Forgotten Realms

Postby IncarnateX; Sat Dec 01, 2012 1:59 am

Mushy Mushy wrote:
IncarnateX wrote:
Mushy Mushy wrote:Lawyers don't work for free mate.


Oh like all nerds they love to use their skills and if they are KVRAFs in addition, the chance they will post seems high to me.
Hmmm I'm trying to be constructive as promised.
There's no need for the subtle attack :roll:


There is no attack, mate. Calling lawyers nerds is a compliment in my book and that KVRAFs are willing to post goes without saying. I am 200 posts from being one myself, so I am not going to nag on KVRAFs now.
Mushy Mushy
KVRAF
 
8816 posts since 6 Sep, 2008

Postby Mushy Mushy; Sat Dec 01, 2012 2:04 am

IncarnateX wrote:
Mushy Mushy wrote:
IncarnateX wrote:
Mushy Mushy wrote:Lawyers don't work for free mate.


Oh like all nerds they love to use their skills and if they are KVRAFs in addition, the chance they will post seems high to me.
Hmmm I'm trying to be constructive as promised.
There's no need for the subtle attack :roll:


There is no attack, mate. Calling lawyers nerds is a compliment in my book and that KVRAFs are willing to post goes without saying. I am 200 posts from being one myself, so I am not going to nag on KVRAFs now.
Ok cool 8)

If one is very well off they may have a 5 figure legal budget to bring this to action.
The budget of a big company like IL is potentially likely to be into 6 figures.
Needless to say who will win that battle. And then the little guy will also need to reimburse the other entity's 6 figure legal costs.
All over a few hundred dollars/pounds.

Right or wrong, that's a different story but I can't see this being resolved in the little guys favour any time soon.
"I was wondering if you'd like to try Magic Mushrooms"
"Oooh I dont know. Sounds a bit scary"
"It's not scary. You just lose a sense of who you are and all that sh!t"
VariKusBrainZ
KVRAF
 
6702 posts since 16 Dec, 2002

Postby VariKusBrainZ; Sat Dec 01, 2012 2:05 am

Mushy Mushy wrote:* waiting for somebody with Propellerheads software to show up * :D


hmm, now who is it that posts 3000 word diatribes about devs whilst 6 months earlier had declared that same dev a God.

Still waiting for Lexicon to receive his stylistic attack for imagined slights lol
The future is yesterday
Mushy Mushy
KVRAF
 
8816 posts since 6 Sep, 2008

Postby Mushy Mushy; Sat Dec 01, 2012 2:10 am

VariKusBrainZ wrote:
Mushy Mushy wrote:* waiting for somebody with Propellerheads software to show up * :D


hmm, now who is it that posts 3000 word diatribes about devs whilst 6 months earlier had declared that same dev a God.

Still waiting for Lexicon to receive his stylistic attack for imagined slights lol
Mate please don't.
I was just playing with this person in good humour.
Please don't turn this thread into that for everybody's benefit.

I beg you 8)
"I was wondering if you'd like to try Magic Mushrooms"
"Oooh I dont know. Sounds a bit scary"
"It's not scary. You just lose a sense of who you are and all that sh!t"
VariKusBrainZ
KVRAF
 
6702 posts since 16 Dec, 2002

Postby VariKusBrainZ; Sat Dec 01, 2012 2:12 am

Mushy Mushy wrote:The budget of a big company like IL is potentially likely to be into 6 figures.


I doubt their annual turnover is 6 figures let alone their legal budget :lol:
The future is yesterday
Mushy Mushy
KVRAF
 
8816 posts since 6 Sep, 2008

Postby Mushy Mushy; Sat Dec 01, 2012 2:16 am

VariKusBrainZ wrote:
Mushy Mushy wrote:The budget of a big company like IL is potentially likely to be into 6 figures.


I doubt their annual turnover is 6 figures let alone their legal budget :lol:
You doubt Image Lines turnover is 6 figures?
Are you mad man?
"I was wondering if you'd like to try Magic Mushrooms"
"Oooh I dont know. Sounds a bit scary"
"It's not scary. You just lose a sense of who you are and all that sh!t"
Mushy Mushy
KVRAF
 
8816 posts since 6 Sep, 2008

Postby Mushy Mushy; Sat Dec 01, 2012 2:20 am

VariKusBrainZ wrote:
Mushy Mushy wrote:The budget of a big company like IL is potentially likely to be into 6 figures.


I doubt their annual turnover is 6 figures let alone their legal budget :lol:
the wages of just the management staff would easily exceed 6 figures
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image-Line#section_3
"I was wondering if you'd like to try Magic Mushrooms"
"Oooh I dont know. Sounds a bit scary"
"It's not scary. You just lose a sense of who you are and all that sh!t"
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Hink
Rad Grandad
 
26354 posts since 5 Sep, 2003, from Downeast Maine

Postby Hink; Sat Dec 01, 2012 9:27 am

hi IncarnateX, not a lawyer, never studied law in my life and I'm not from Europe so I hope you dont mind me asking a question. Does the law in Europe require that IL honors the buyer future free upgrades or is it an "as is" sale in the eyes of the law?

I know you would not want to sell it to someone who would be stuck buying it from IL when the next upgrade comes out. I think Meffy is spot on checking with Ben as the marketplace is his store so to speak, if he chooses to not allow IL to be sold out of respect for IL's policies there are many other ways of selling it.

I wish the best for you on this sale but I want to make sure someone doesn't get angry with you if they cannot upgrade for free :)
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IncarnateX
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2762 posts since 25 Jan, 2009, from Forgotten Realms

Postby IncarnateX; Sat Dec 01, 2012 10:07 am

Hink wrote:hi IncarnateX, not a lawyer, never studied law in my life and I'm not from Europe so I hope you dont mind me asking a question. Does the law in Europe require that IL honors the buyer future free upgrades or is it an "as is" sale in the eyes of the law?

I know you would not want to sell it to someone who would be stuck buying it from IL when the next upgrade comes out. I think Meffy is spot on checking with Ben as the marketplace is his store so to speak, if he chooses to not allow IL to be sold out of respect for IL's policies there are many other ways of selling it.

I wish the best for you on this sale but I want to make sure someone doesn't get angry with you if they cannot upgrade for free :)


Thanks for the input Hink. I get your point and that is actually the reason that I have not put my IM account on sale yet, though others have and were locked. However, if I could sell my account as is, this would automatically include updates as these are provided automatically. It is not the product I would like to resell but the license to use it. I understand both Meffy and Ben but it is an important issue because there is really no middle road. Either the law support resales within EU and thus preventing people to resale is the same as violating their legal rights, in other words, KVR would be helping developers to break the law, OR the law don' t support resales within EU and thus keeping things at status quo is the right thing to do at KVR. To solve the issue we obviously need advice from lawyers.
A.M. Gold
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5537 posts since 4 May, 2007, from Mars Colony

Postby A.M. Gold; Sat Dec 01, 2012 3:51 pm

Laws are only laws if you get busted. If IL or anyone else decides to chance it, there isn't much you can do but try to find the proper authorities to complain to, or maybe sue.
"You don’t expect much beyond a gaping, misspelled void when you stare into the cold dark place that is Internet comments."

---Salon on internet trolls attacking Cleveland kidnapping victim Amanda Berry
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Hink
Rad Grandad
 
26354 posts since 5 Sep, 2003, from Downeast Maine

Postby Hink; Sat Dec 01, 2012 6:05 pm

IncarnateX wrote:
Hink wrote:hi IncarnateX, not a lawyer, never studied law in my life and I'm not from Europe so I hope you dont mind me asking a question. Does the law in Europe require that IL honors the buyer future free upgrades or is it an "as is" sale in the eyes of the law?

I know you would not want to sell it to someone who would be stuck buying it from IL when the next upgrade comes out. I think Meffy is spot on checking with Ben as the marketplace is his store so to speak, if he chooses to not allow IL to be sold out of respect for IL's policies there are many other ways of selling it.

I wish the best for you on this sale but I want to make sure someone doesn't get angry with you if they cannot upgrade for free :)


Thanks for the input Hink. I get your point and that is actually the reason that I have not put my IM account on sale yet, though others have and were locked. However, if I could sell my account as is, this would automatically include updates as these are provided automatically. It is not the product I would like to resell but the license to use it. I understand both Meffy and Ben but it is an important issue because there is really no middle road. Either the law support resales within EU and thus preventing people to resale is the same as violating their legal rights, in other words, KVR would be helping developers to break the law, OR the law don' t support resales within EU and thus keeping things at status quo is the right thing to do at KVR. To solve the issue we obviously need advice from lawyers.


But if Ben said no how would it be illegal? I agree that it might be best for a lawyer but on the other hand who is to tell Ben what he is to allow and not allow on his site? There really is a middle road, sell it elsewhere. IL does have a forum here for their pluggins, that forum will bring people to KvR and Ben makes income off of the advertising so having IL here is good for him.

When I worked in retail similar things would come up, many companies will not allow two stores close to each other to sell the same gear of theirs. For instance at Mars music we had two stores in Mass, one in Natick and one in Somerville (I worked in Natick Mass). We were not allowed to sell Mesa Boogies in our store though Mars was a mesa Boogie dealer, but Somerville could. We had a GC sort of across the street (you couldn't see it but it was very close), they sold Mesa Boogies and they were there first so Mesa Boogie said no. Mars had to honor that or they would lose Mesa Boogie entirely. (new amps only, used was a different story)

The store I worked at before that was a small store ironically in Somerville Mass too (I thought that Mars would be the end of the road for my job tbh), down the street in Cambridge was Daddy's Junky Music (the third store I worked for but once again a different location :hihi: ). We had those Fender Squire packs in the window and while we actually had a good relationship with Daddy's salesmen they complained because they sold Fender. The Fender rep came in and told us we had to remove the packs from the store (but we sold them in our other three stores) or the store would lose Fender. (FWIW we kept them in the basement and still sold them)

So sometimes the companies and not the owner of a store calls the shots, Roland allowed us to sell the same thing as any store...they did not tell us we could not sell the same thing at Mars that they sold at GC...BUT...we could not sell any new piece of Roland gear below a certain price nor could GC or Roland would pull their gear out of that store. Mars use to send me over to GC to spy because I lived 30+ miles away and was better known in my area and not so much around there so I could go in unnoticed (in fact I once got GC to give me directions to Mars :hihi: ) and people that once worked for GC that worked at mars noticed them doing the same thing.

So I think you have to live with Ben's decision and I'm not sure that a lawyer would change a thing (except cost money), if he decides to side with IL and not allow you to sell your license here I believe he has every right to do so...but then that's based on my experiences in the U.S. and not Europe. I also realize that this is a support site and not a store, we're talking something used and not new...but still, it's Ben's call IMO and I do not think he needs to explain his decision either TBH. He might just want to steer clear of any conflict of interest or issues. I really do not think it's really breaking the law either or helping anyone to break the law, it's his site, his ball and his rules :shrug:

With that said maybe this thread will draw attention to your wish to sell FL and someone might just send you a quick PM.
Doug1978
KVRAF
 
1974 posts since 19 Jun, 2011, from a world of Black Thunder chocs

Postby Doug1978; Sat Dec 01, 2012 6:11 pm

But what exactly are we calling all lawyers?

* insert punchline *
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Resonator63
KVRAF
 
3569 posts since 1 Oct, 2006, from Um! Where is this?

Postby Resonator63; Sat Dec 01, 2012 6:31 pm

Personally I would like to be able to resell my IL licenses as I do not use them anymore.
That said as IL give lifetime updates it creates a whole different situation.
As I see it FL Studio is consistently updated so I cannot argue or complain about not being able to resell that.
However many of their plug-ins never or very rarely get updated,so maybe those should be allowed to be resold.
It's the fact that their plug-ins don't get updated and are allowed to pretty much die that stops me buying anything else from them.
When were Poizone,Drumaxx,Morphine etc last updated :shrug:
Lifetime updates mean nothing if there is no lifetime or updates :(
Like I said FL Studio itself I have no qualms about,updates are regular.Therefore lifetime updates is exactly what we are getting.
However that boast becomes absolute marketing bullshit when it comes to some of the plug-ins.
They simply don't get updated.

I have bought plenty from IL, I won't buy anything else.
sjm
KVRian
 
976 posts since 17 Apr, 2004

Postby sjm; Sat Dec 01, 2012 8:06 pm

This is my take:

Ben/KVR/Meffy don't want to unnecessarily antagonize devs who - whether legally or illegally - object to the transfer of the licenses to their software. Ben/KVR/Meffy have every right to lock these threads if they so wish. This is less an issue of whether it's legal/illegal and more an issue of keeping the devs who post here and possibly pay for advertising happy and to avoid possible issues with license transfers to people outside the EU (which is still not allowed). So I can understand their position - it just makes things easier for them. EU law doesn't say that a site in the US may not make its own forum rules - for obvious reasons.

There is also absolutely no doubt that people within the EU may freely transfer licenses to used software and the recent ruling (which only reaffirmed existing law) also included a statement to the effect that the new user should have the same rights as the old one. That should include the lifetime updates - which is why there was at least some mulling over the idea of no longer offering lifetime free updates by JMC on the IL forum (which also suggests that IL take this situation as given, the question for them is only how the deal with it). One would also assume that "no lifetime updates" would only be applied to new users (as I can't see how they can retroactively change the terms under which they sold the software 10 years ago). They could probably come up with another way of reneging on their promise by rebranding FL or whatever.


At the end of the day, you can sell your IL licenses if you are in the EU, but nobody is under any obligation to help you do so; the only one under any obligation is the developer, who may not prevent you from transferring the license and who may not charge you for the privilege (as the dev gave up any claims to further remuneration for selling the license at the first sale; this is also mentioned explicitly in the recent ruling).
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