Is outstanding musical talent related to intelligence?

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Just curious what people think.

I'm thinking more along the lines of people who are very skilled musically and make it seem easy because they can do it so naturally.
Last edited by V0RT3X on Wed Jan 29, 2014 4:57 pm, edited 3 times in total.
:borg:

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Google David Helfgott.

Australian renowned pianist who has/ had to be led around by his minder.
I'm tired of being insane. I'm going outsane for some fresh air.

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the notion that 'genius' is not 'intelligence' is BIZARRE. Not even related to! No worries, I'm not going to bother you too much, just a drive-through:
Sure, there is possibly a narrow form of it at work in some individuals. But we don't have a definition of 'musical genius' here in the first place. A pianist?; well what's his deal? Is he on the 'autism spectrum'? Is he an 'idiot savant'? If he is a virtuoso, well is there a problem of a definition here also? The level of detail and recall required, it ought to be perfectly obvious this is 'intelligence'.

You may not realize, but people with a great deal going on upstairs can't be arsed sometimes, they're busy.

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Mr Helfgott was portrayed in the movie 'Shine'
I never worked with him for which I am grateful. My theatre tech who did operate his performance thought he was rather strange. Mr Helfgott grabbed my tech by both hands and said 'you understand, that's good' ...
I'm tired of being insane. I'm going outsane for some fresh air.

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jancivil wrote:the notion that 'genius' is not 'intelligence' is BIZARRE. Not even related to! No worries, I'm not going to bother you too much, just a drive-through:
Sure, there is possibly a narrow form of it at work in some individuals. But we don't have a definition of 'musical genius' here in the first place. A pianist?; well what's his deal? Is he on the 'autism spectrum'? Is he an 'idiot savant'? If he is a virtuoso, well is there a problem of a definition here also? The level of detail and recall required, it ought to be perfectly obvious this is 'intelligence'.

You may not realize, but people with a great deal going on upstairs can't be arsed sometimes, they're busy.
I suppose a musicial genius would be the one who is incredibly gifted at playing and producing very amazing music. I mean like the ones who barely have to practice and they are just "incredible" because it comes so naturally to them.

Im thinking my question was worded poorly, and I think Werp did sort of catch on somewhat what I was asking. Anyhow i edited my question so it kind of works better.

I guess I better read more on this before asking.
:borg:

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V0RT3X wrote:I mean like the ones who barely have to practice and they are just "incredible" because it comes so naturally to them.
Are you sure they didn't practice playing piano for decades since age 5?

I don't believe that mastership is falling from the sky without many years of apprenticeship...

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The question is made more difficult due to the lack of a definition of your terms. How do you define 'intelligence' and how do you measure musical 'skill'?

One could argue that mastery of an instrument (and only that instrument) to the exclusion of everything else in life would leave you with a high musical intelligence, but bereft of rational thought elsewhere.

FWIW, I've always loved Groucho Marx's account of his frustration with his very talented brother Chico. Harpo, of course, was an acclaimed multi-instrumentalist who, by all accounts, worked hard at his musical craft (Rent the movie THE BIG STORE and cut to the scene where, through the magic of cinema, Harpo performs, by himself, as a trio). Chico, on the other hand (according to Groucho) preferred to spend his time in gambling clubs and in the company of fast women, never taking the time to rehearse or practice. His only performance ritual was to soak his hands in warm water for a few minutes before performing.

Cheers
-B
Berfab
So many plugins, so little time...

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Maybe it's more fair to say that there's some degree of correlation, but I certainly don't think that all musically adept people are intelligent and vice versa.

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V0RT3X wrote:I suppose a musicial genius would be the one who is incredibly gifted at playing and producing very amazing music. I mean like the ones who barely have to practice and they are just "incredible" because it comes so naturally to them.
Then we appear to have differences as to the meaning. I have been exposed to people that were top virtuosos. I would say that their 'gift' varies quite a bit and that every single one of them worked their ass off, typically (though not absolutely necessarily) since a precocious age. I would not necessarily put a classical performer up as a 'musical genius' just through playing *ability*. There is too much mimicry and received ideas of things with too many of these people, and the ability to perform a certain repertoire does not through itself indicate to me a great understanding of anything else.

So given that as a definition, I think it's possible that a not terrifically intelligent person can be a celebrated classical performer. That said, I never knew anybody that 'barely had to practice' at a certain level. Everybody practiced all the f**king time afaict.

OTOH a lot of the people I find to show a type of genius were not child prodigies or people that had a really easy time. That notion seems to me to seek to get rid of the terrific amount of work behind the seriously *accomplished* people and weight the scale perhaps unproportionally towards 'talent' as if a magical property.

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So Mozart wasn't a child prodigy? Maybe his musically advanced parents (especially his father) taught him music since (early) childhood, and maybe "Wolferl" worked/trained like a dog to get famous? :o

Maybe there wouldn't have been any Mozart without the support of his parents?
Last edited by Tricky-Loops on Wed Jan 29, 2014 7:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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I think a natural aptitude for music is inherited. I think in all cases it's a form of intelligence, so we may have to examine that definition as well.

Is a 'savant' intelligent generally versus specifically a 'freakish' focusing of intelligence, for instance.

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'child prodigy' indicates a specific thing, a precocious and swift gaining of facility. I'm sure Mozart worked all the time at it, though. I don't think a valid dichotomy applies there.

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I think there are several forms of intelligence and knowledge, and that's where the question first comers to a dead end? Isn't intelligence necessary to master cooking? Or creating dresses? Or project a house or a bridge? Does the lack of those skills make people less intelligent? And what about those that spend their lives studying the behaviour of some species of animals or plants, and are incapable of ruling their own lives, or interacts with other humans? Are those less intelligent? Or more?
Is someone that is capable of dragging an entire nation behind him, and lead almost the entire world into destruction intelligent? Super intelligent? An imbecile?
I view intelligence as an abstract notion, that, when we dig deeper, lacks referents and meaning.
Regarding musicians, there are very skilled musicians that are very intelligent, and others that are not that much intelligent (talking in abstract). And there are musicians that are very gifted in their instrument, but don't know much besides it, even musically, and there are others that are just OK in their instrument, but have a deep knowledge about music. Which ones are more intelligent? I cannot say just because of that. I would only be able to say that some know more about music, and some know less, although they can play better what they play.
Fernando (FMR)

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There is definitely some correlation.
But boy there are a lot of outliers on all sides... :scared:
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