Well, another iLok drama unfolding

[CableChannel]

There are a lot of people that aren't against USB CP as a whole but hate how PACE implements it (and their policies in general). You can sincerely dislike iLok but still like Steinberg's eLicenser...as I do.

-Sam

+1

Have the eLicenser dongle, it is practically invisible for me, how it is supposed to be. Works without any glitch.

OTOH I heard so many horror stories about iLok that I decided to stay away from that completely. I was interested in Flux plugins, but hey, there are alternatives. So nope, no Flux for me. They "lost" a customer because of the iLok.

[Compyfox]

Well, isn't how it supposed to be? It's a prime example customers having some actual influence. Obviously voting with the wallet is a way to go.

It's a fine line between a request and objective vote, and actually threatening a company to bomb them if they "refuse to do by the bidding of the users".

Several sides to a medal.

At this point, LinPlug was fighting against heavy sharing of cracked software versions. They wanted to put prevent that with this move. Apparently, some people got it down the wrong pipe and sh*t went downhill. What I linked to was just the "harmless" stuff.

If it says iLok or eLicenser on the tin, it's a certain no-buy for me. But on this day and age it is quite obvious that any despicable practices devs are engaged in will be scrutinized online by the masses.

So going iLok2 (as Slate did during Beta, since his beta versions were stolen and shared all over the web) and/or Syncrosoft (LinPlug, to ease up on the cracked versions) is a despicable practice? And due to that, needs a massive critism/action against "going that route"?

Or do you mean the glitches at the iLok server?
Sorry - but I can't follow.

Also here is a good example for you, Compyfox, about communicating with PACE on this matter:

If this really was an illegal sold license, then that particular person is out of luck. The least he can do is ask back the transfer license, and try to pursue a certain lawsuit towards the person that sold it to him. If it's still possible, and if there is enough proof that this was a "non legit" license.

Or... he could try to get in touch with the developers he is now registered at (remember: paid the transfer fee, you're now an official user) - and try to get things sorted out. I'd do that at least.Most companies are accommodating enough to sort this out, rather than loosing a user that then goes haywire on the net.

If it was a direct bought license - then things need to be sorted out, no questions asked. But even then, you need to contact the developer in question (see my former posts).


I take this quote with a grain of salt.

But from the thread at the DUC board alone, and from what we get to know... I think there is a way different issue than the "glitch". I think a lot of people try to make some air about their personal issues with Pace/iLok (see the people in here, that are not affected). Even with stuff that is totally unrelated to the particular problem.



Regarding "how often do you reinstall a rig?":
I can answer that with: several times a year.

The tests with Steinberg I had to do, forced me to reinstall my rig like 6 times within two months (including updating everything) - to really rule out issues with third party plugins. Imagine how much work it is to get everything back and running. And lucky enough, I do not have that many C/R plugins and instruments, and inserting serials is pretty simple (but time consuming). Though I do prefer iLok/Syncrosoft any day over that particular CP system.

Backup images might be a solution - but I found out that these still ask for reactivation if the plugins.

[metamorphosis]

Backup images do not ask for activation which has already been processed if you've done them right -

I backup my main system partition maybe once every six months, and on occasion have to roll back to a prev installation if something goes haywire.

[Compyfox]

Strangely enough, some do. Think that it's a new HDD and asks for reactivation.

[robotmonkey]

So going iLok2 (as Slate did during Beta, since his beta versions were stolen and shared all over the web) and/or Syncrosoft (LinPlug, to ease up on the cracked versions) is a despicable practice? And due to that, needs a massive critism/action against "going that route"?

Or do you mean the glitches at the iLok server?
Sorry - but I can't follow.

It's the problem with sacrificing paying customers in the name of fighting piracy. Things like PACE are huge disadvantage to paying customers because they put all the risk and losses on the paying customer. Not only do you have to get 50$ piece of plastic (judging from its quality it should cost more like 50 cents) on top of the software price but you also have to take all the loses when it malfunctions. Did PACE or any developer who uses iLok compensate any of the losses many had to take from the last big PACE debacle? I doubt it. What is even more outrageous is that they are taking money for the ZDT protection that is in many cases more like "can't work several days" protection.

If this really was an illegal sold license, then that particular person is out of luck. The least he can do is ask back the transfer license, and try to pursue a certain lawsuit towards the person that sold it to him. If it's still possible, and if there is enough proof that this was a "non legit" license.

You obviously fail to see the problem in the first place. If there were any non-legit licenses then it is solely a fault of PACE as nothing happens in the iLok universe without the PACE's approval. if they generated wrong licenses it's their fault. And there is no way a purchaser can verify the authenticity of the license. Moreover PACE is advertising themselves as a safe way of selling and purchasing licenses and they also collected license transfer fees from those transfers. So deleting licenses many months after is not acceptable because by that time there is virtually no way for purchasers to take any action. There are time-limits on how long can you take any action through Paypal, credit cards or banks.

Regarding "how often do you reinstall a rig?":
I can answer that with: several times a year.

If in that time and age you are doing reinstalls several times a year then you are simply doing it wrong.

There is absolutely no need to mess around with your main DAW because the virtualization is free and easily usable for absolutely any testing purposes.

[The_Hidden_Goose]

I remember during the "iLokalypse" that Steven Slate got a lot of heat for defending iLok at the time - some of it a bit personal and out of line (well, quite a lot of it to be fair). He didn't cave in to that storm, and I'm sure he doesn't now regret doing so. That was his decision. He braved the storm and I'm guessing didn't lose all of his customers to it. If he lost some, I'm sure he feels his products are good enough to attract more. That's business.

If Linplug caved in to that pressure then that's their decision. They survived at least, and I hope they continue to - even if they go back to USB CP.

Not every company is the same, and they'll make their decisions based on what they think is best for them, and they'll take into account their customers views and react if they think they need to.

I think you're possibly in the minority on the multiple installations per year Compyfox, but there are more than a few who end up doing that for sure. I've done it in the past, and it is time-consuming to go thru the serial inputting over and over again - especially when you've not long done it but there's something wrong and you've got to reinstall the O/S or other major software again and again to get it working right, which does happen. It's not always obvious there's a problem until you're halfway through reinstalling everything!

The one time I did have a backup, the majority were fine as the activation had already been backed up into the registry. However the problems with my O/S were also backed up in the registry so that was no good in the end, and I had to do it the long way. Usually I'm lazy/stupid and don't have a system backup that would serve. I would hazard that a fair few others are similarly lazy/stupid!

It does happen. And I don't necessarily think it's because you've "done it wrong". Computers are complex pernickety beasts! Especially PCs.

[standalone]

If there were any non-legit licenses then it is solely a fault of PACE as nothing happens in the iLok universe without the PACE's approval. if they generated wrong licenses it's their fault. And there is no way a purchaser can verify the authenticity of the license. Moreover PACE is advertising themselves as a safe way of selling and purchasing licenses and they also collected license transfer fees from those transfers. So deleting licenses many months after is not acceptable because by that time there is virtually no way for purchasers to take any action. There are time-limits on how long can you take any action through Paypal, credit cards or banks.

That's the real point of this thread, not the old, endless arguments about dongles.

[Hink]

But let me ask this...is it possible that if it were not for copy protection some of the best software would be gone because the companies would go out of business? I say that's highly likely so yes when such things happen it's going to piss me off, I am going to rant too...but every storm passes and then it's time to move on.

So I hate copy protection, but it beats the alternative which could mean losing software I really like...a dongle is a small pita (even if it shuts down one piece of software for a month) compared to all the good that software has brought to improve my passion and how I enjoy my passion. I'm sorry if others cannot see their way to that point, but that's not my problem.

But is this the case at all? Is there absolutely any evidence to support this?

How is it that many companies do not use intrusive copy protection systems and still manage to turn out excellent products and still be in business. Take Image-Line or u-he for example. Or Adobe. Adobe's software has been pirated like hell since the very first versions and they still have managed to grow into a huge mega-corporation. Also their software is the best at what it does. Or take GOG.com from gaming world. No copy protection at all and they have been a huge success that is thriving. And actually just because of their stance towards intrusive copy protection.

The problem with piracy scare is that it is very hard to actually measure what would happen without copy protection. Most of the evaluations of so-called "lost sales" are taken completely out of air. It's just not sound economics. All that matters is how much you actually manage sell. If you are a shady dev with average products you might comfort yourself with the imaginary numbers that you might have sold but the fact is that nobody cares about your product anyway. Copy protected or not.

you could be right, I could be right, the bottom line is I have had very little problems with copy protection. In fact besides the pita of needing two of the same companies dongles for two different pieces of software my only other issue was in 2005 when I bought AVOX and it came with an ilok, my first dongle...I could not get it to take my code, it would not work at all and I just kept getting an error message. Antares had me send them the ilok, they put the license on it and sent it back (they also paid for overnight shipping)...it turns out the issue was my firewall not permitting things to go through...USER ERROR, 100% my fault.

Read my post, I dont like copy protection any more than you do, but I have found in life you have to choose your battles and I do agree there is some validity in the statement "better the devil you know". Would I like to see copy protection to go away? Yes, I hate putting in serial numbers too...none of it is convenient. But once again, I must choose my battles and IMHO this is a no win situation.

I'm sorry I cannot answer why some companies survive and why others dont, there's more to it than dongles and I do not have the proper info or education to make such a determination. I could ask how companies survive using something for protection people hate, if all the customers hate it why are they not running away in droves from that company? But again, we do not have access to info to really see the whole picture...hell I am still trying to figure out why companies use telemarketing when they know people hate it so much it causes people to start acting ...but people still seem to support those companies.

I did start with software using FL and Adobe Audition (actually I started with cakewalk home studio 9 for midi, there was a demo for FL and CE2k which got my attention and of course Cool Edit was bought by Adobe and all of which were serial numbers). The time came where I moved to Samplitude and Samp really works well for me so like I have said many times here, if I listen to the fear mongers on dongles I would have made a mistake...at least it would have been a mistake for me (please do not ask me to prove that too, there is no way to prove such a thing...you'll just have to take my word for it). I am glad that Magix made the dongle an option, I choose not to use it...but I also understand why some people prefer it. In fact I have decided to keep an open mind because I think that the next step is in place with dongles for streaming...the wifi dongle...which may make things better for the consumer.

One thing I can say, when I first joined KvR there was a popular member who had something about PACE being evil in his sig...I had no idea who or what PACE was at the time and I then followed debates on the subject. The reason I bring this up is because it suggests to me that if people have been complaining about PACE all this time chances are they are not going anywhere or at least copy protection is not going anywhere.

Is it a scam? Well again I have to pick my battles and before I will worry whether something that does not cause me issues is a scam I am going to worry about things that do affect my day to day life. I hope this does not offend you that I think the whole issue is low on my priority list, but it is. I still contend that more time has been lost to complaining about these things than has been lost due to actual issues...and this thread is all the proof I need, but over ten plus years I have seen this thread repeated many times.

You choose to make this your battle and that's fine, I am not "pro-PACE" by any means and I wish you well (and everyone else who wants to fight this fight) in your endeavor, I even admire you for sticking to your guns. Obviously you are far more passionate about copy protection than I just as I am very passionate about other issues...this is just not one of them for me.

[Compyfox]

It's the problem with sacrificing paying customers in the name of fighting piracy. Things like PACE are huge disadvantage to paying customers because they put all the risk and losses on the paying customer. Not only do you have to get 50$ piece of plastic (judging from its quality it should cost more like 50 cents) on top of the software price but you also have to take all the loses when it malfunctions.

Funny enough, I paid 25EUR plus shipping. Within the first two months, it was only available in the US as well. Not to mention that nowadays the "50 bucks piece of plastic" is bundled with software deals (Slate Digital comes to mind).

Did PACE or any developer who uses iLok compensate any of the losses many had to take from the last big PACE debacle? I doubt it. What is even more outrageous is that they are taking money for the ZDT protection that is in many cases more like "can't work several days" protection.

I can't speak for others - but I haven't seen any mentioned form of compensation, and I also don't pay for the ZDT. Neither did I run into issues with the "iLokalypse".

You obviously fail to see the problem in the first place. If there were any non-legit licenses then it is solely a fault of PACE as nothing happens in the iLok universe without the PACE's approval. if they generated wrong licenses it's their fault. And there is no way a purchaser can verify the authenticity of the license.

Er... somewhat vague here. Because with the companies in question (again, our prime example with the CraneSong user on DUC), it could be easily retraced what happened and how it happened.

Like I said - if sold second hand, the company needs to be informed that the plugin will be sold (best case, though some companies doesn't interest that, only the new user), the fee is paid, the new licensee is being registered and activated. Can be checked through the developer.

If there were duplicated licenses that were sold, and the company agreed that this is possible... then it's not iLok to blame alone, don't you think?


I am also sure, that those that had "duplicated licenses" were warned in advance. Though as we could read in here (KVR), users ignored it.

I can't further comment on this whole lot, and I won't. I think I've written enough at this point. I didn't run into this glitch, neither did I get a mail. I could say, I dodged another "iLokalypse". Am I lucky or what?

Moreover PACE is advertising themselves as a safe way of selling and purchasing licenses and they also collected license transfer fees from those transfers. So deleting licenses many months after is not acceptable because by that time there is virtually no way for purchasers to take any action. There are time-limits on how long can you take any action through Paypal, credit cards or banks.

Which is why I said to get in touch with the developer in question as well. He can sort it out! There is a thing that is explicitly existing for that purpose - it's called "customer support".

If in that time and age you are doing reinstalls several times a year then you are simply doing it wrong.

There is absolutely no need to mess around with your main DAW because the virtualization is free and easily usable for absolutely any testing purposes.

I'm a beta tester, I sometimes need to do drastic measures on request. And do I need to remind you people of the Steinberg issues I was having (and still have)?

Sometimes after recovering my HDD from a cloned image, the VST plugin says "whoops - please reactivate again". And that's mostly C/R. Rare, but it's happening. I don't think that I'm "doing it wrong".