KVR Audio

Dean Aka Nekro · Post by **Dean Aka Nekro** » Fri May 30, 2014 7:26 am

Double post, sorry

tapper mike · Post by **tapper mike** » Fri May 30, 2014 7:18 pm

@Dean, great reply.

Here's a story that coincides with your perspective.

My Brother is a general manager of a company that is a subsidiary of a very very big utility company (gas+electric) He has two secretaries and a personal assistant. In short he's got money. So he goes out looking at all tube hi-fi home entertainment systems. He reads all the magazines and visits showrooms. And laughs in salesmen's face when they tell him how much it costs. It isn't that he can't afford that stuff it's just that he thinks the price is stupid.

So,,he's in need of a hobby. He decides to build his own all tube amp for his home stereo system. He didn't know anything about electronics prior but he's a smart guy. He works on it and works on it and works on it and... He get's it up and running.
He a/b 's the amp sound from the solid state amp he's had for better then ten years. Can't tell the difference. He claims that due to his age he can't hear upper registers (which is natural) but.. Playing through a tube amp doesn't really provide more brilliant highs then solid state. So then he decided to have a shoot out between his solid state home amp, his home made one and a buddy's high priced tube amp. Brought some friends over played the game. Verdict, either they didn't have an acquired enough ear to appreciate the sonic differences between the amps, or they were too drunk or they simply couldn't tell. They all failed miserably. Sort of like the violin test.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2014/05/ ... t-a-violin

engineer · Post by **engineer** » Fri Jun 06, 2014 8:32 pm

There is a small piece of truth behind that valid also for the HW/SW discussion: I know a lot of musicians who do own a certain HW-synth just because it is a well known instument and several TOP bands use it. Well me myself do so

There is something special about some classical synths, someting mystery or esotheric. It might have to do with pschology

I observe similar things in the recording scene, regarding microphones!

And there is one thing: Hardware is more expensive and not available for everybody. A very important thing in the early days of electronic music.

But:

Apart from the theoretic discussion, there are some reasonably pros for HW:
Even with today's CPU-Power, Software DSPs still suffer from the fact that a tradeoff between functions and accuracy has to be made, because "function versatily" requires calculation power.
With HW the point of compromise is usually a different one.

kmonkey · Post by **kmonkey** » Fri Jun 06, 2014 8:41 pm

engineer wrote:There is a small piece of truth behind that valid also for the HW/SW discussion: I know a lot of musicians who do own a certain HW-synth just because it is a well known instument and several TOP bands use it. Well me myself do so There is something special about some classical synths, someting mystery or esotheric. It might have to do with pschology .

Not in my case. Example - i have zero emotions on which band be it TOP or totally weird use what. Totally not my concern. I choose all my gear on listening. Whatever i have - and i do have a lot of software AND hardware i have because of the way it sounds.

Yes i prefer hardware over software because most of the time it get's me there faster but i am not gonna tell you that software sucks or can't be used for pro level production.

Real magic is behind person doing it. Technology is for supporting your art. I worked dozen of various jobs to survive and after i saw many things i can say that i've seen people having marvelous things under their disposal yet they can't do a chimp shit and i have seen people having poor tools yet producing awesome things. Go figure.

Uncle E · Post by **Uncle E** » Sat Jun 07, 2014 1:54 am

engineer wrote:There is a small piece of truth behind that valid also for the HW/SW discussion: I know a lot of musicians who do own a certain HW-synth just because it is a well known instument and several TOP bands use it. Well me myself do so There is something special about some classical synths, someting mystery or esotheric. It might have to do with pschology

It was funny when everyone wanted an SH-101 after Josh Wink used one for the "Higher State" video, I heard from insiders that it was actually a TB-303 on record and that he only used the SH-101 in the video because it was red and looked cool.

There are times when following your heroes leads you in good directions. Orbital's MMT-8's, Leftfield's Bass Station, 4Hero's S950, Lamb's e6400, Vangelis's CS-80, Uberzone's Jupiter 6, RAM Trilogy's Virus, Public Enemy's SP-1200, and DJ Shadow's MPC60 all come to mind.

Uncle E · Post by **Uncle E** » Sat Jun 07, 2014 2:30 am

kmonkey wrote:Not in my case. Example - i have zero emotions on which band be it TOP or totally weird use what. Totally not my concern. I choose all my gear on listening. Whatever i have - and i do have a lot of software AND hardware i have because of the way it sounds.

Do you remember when Liam Howlett did that album 100% on Reason? I always felt like he did that as a way of connecting with his fans, as a form of marketing.

tapper mike · Post by **tapper mike** » Sat Jun 07, 2014 4:02 am

I could have sworn I replied to this thread.

Ed Roman had this blog article way back when that I can't find now regarding famous fakes. How famous players didn't play the instruments that we associate with on the recordings. Such as..(as I believed for many years) Jimmy Page did not play a Les Paul on the recorded solo of "Stairway to Heaven" even though he's quoted as doing so in an interview for Guitar Player magazine back in the early 80's )

I've played Tele vi's I've played tele copies. I own a tele copy. However when only a tele will do I own a real Fender Telecaster and that's what I reach for. I don't write, perform whatever from the sound of the instrument. I write, perform from my mindset. Often the instrument can affect my mindset from a psychoacoustic perspective which is great if it enhances my playing. If perchance I stumble upon a vast fortune will I purchase a hammond B3 mkII. Hell yeah in a heartbeat. I don't care what else comes close or hits the nail on the head. Me knowing that it's the real deal and having the money is more then enough for me to decide what I want to do. As for the rest of the world, what you want for you doesn't make it what I want for me.

Biome_Digital · Post by **Biome_Digital** » Sat Jun 28, 2014 9:56 pm

It's a hot topic. I agree with the comment that things like alchemy does things that my analogue can't. Thats why I use both.

Dean Aka Nekro · Post by **Dean Aka Nekro** » Fri Oct 03, 2014 11:09 am

tapper mike wrote:@Dean, great reply.

Here's a story that coincides with your perspective.

My Brother is a general manager of a company that is a subsidiary of a very very big utility company (gas+electric) He has two secretaries and a personal assistant. In short he's got money. So he goes out looking at all tube hi-fi home entertainment systems. He reads all the magazines and visits showrooms. And laughs in salesmen's face when they tell him how much it costs. It isn't that he can't afford that stuff it's just that he thinks the price is stupid.

So,,he's in need of a hobby. He decides to build his own all tube amp for his home stereo system. He didn't know anything about electronics prior but he's a smart guy. He works on it and works on it and works on it and... He get's it up and running.
He a/b 's the amp sound from the solid state amp he's had for better then ten years. Can't tell the difference. He claims that due to his age he can't hear upper registers (which is natural) but.. Playing through a tube amp doesn't really provide more brilliant highs then solid state. So then he decided to have a shoot out between his solid state home amp, his home made one and a buddy's high priced tube amp. Brought some friends over played the game. Verdict, either they didn't have an acquired enough ear to appreciate the sonic differences between the amps, or they were too drunk or they simply couldn't tell. They all failed miserably. Sort of like the violin test.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2014/05/ ... t-a-violin

ha awesome that one Mike, sorry it took me so long to see this post/reply, Cheers

trimph1 · Post by **trimph1** » Fri Oct 03, 2014 8:00 pm

Biome_Digital wrote:It's a hot topic. I agree with the comment that things like alchemy does things that my analogue can't. Thats why I use both.

+1 to this. They are all part of my pallette..

vurt · Post by **vurt** » Sat Oct 04, 2014 2:59 pm

My gf prefers hardware.

KBSoundSmith · Post by **KBSoundSmith** » Sat Oct 04, 2014 3:32 pm

Hmm, both have their place in my work.

When it comes to actually making sounds with a synth, it's all software. The sound quality, workflow, variety, price, physical space--simply too advantageous. I do own a Moog Sub Phatty, but I had to change the physical setup of my equipment for family reasons, so I haven't been able to use the thing, but I'm not exactly missing it since I have software to cover what it does anyway (I do like it, it sounds great, good construction, and it does have a certain charm, but like I said--a touch superfluous, debating whether to sell it or not).

In terms of hardware, I have a 25key axiom (I hate it), a novation slmk II (love it, but can't use it for the reason above), and I have an 88-key hammer action keyboard (different room, so able to use it), plus an actual piano my family lucked into for free years ago.

I hate the small midi-keyboard for a reason: it's too small to think with. I play the piano, studied for years, took composition lessons, and I find the 25 keys to be like a straight-jacket when working on ideas--my best writing always happens at a larger keyboard. I have the advantage of multiple octaves, plus the ability to play chords (I can't stand hardware synths with large, but monophonic keybeds--it's like being a peck-typist versus a touch-typist, and they don't offer a sound advantage over software, so I'm annoyed by hardware synths on multiple fronts).

So what I will do is some sound design to get an idea of the general soundworld and basic ideas of what I want to write, then go to the full keyboard and work on the ideas, then go back to the computer to check the sketches against the sounds I want to use. That feedback loop goes back and forth until I'm satisfied, then it becomes all computer/software.

In any case, I thought I'd mention my workflow/psychology as it highlights why I would or wouldn't use a particular piece of hardware or software--I think just general "hardware vs. software" is a bit too generic, whereas the real questions are how do you think/create, what are your previous experiences with physical instruments, do you need to perform live, and what variety of sounds do you require for your work.

Acid Mitch · Post by **Acid Mitch** » Sat Oct 04, 2014 3:48 pm

Uncle E wrote: Do you remember when Liam Howlett did that album 100% on Reason? I always felt like he did that as a way of connecting with his fans, as a form of marketing.

I remember he wrote "Always Outnumbered, Never Outgunned" in Reason, but he went into a studio called "The Mews" to record it, mostly using gear that's nothing to do with Reason.
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/Oct04/a ... rodigy.htm

Or are you talking about something else ?

Hardware VS Software!