NFR - legal in the EU ?

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fmr wrote:
weedywhizz wrote:Still interesting. Nearly every article at least in Germany points out that software can generally be resold in the EU.
They all must be wrong I guess. Maybe a lawyer can tell me...
Articles do not make law. And lawyers usually are not very well informed about the long term implications regarding a software license. The biggest issue here is not being allowed to resell software, but the consequences to the buyer if the publisher doesn't recognize him. It's not like a book, a CD or a DVD, which are selled "as is", and noone expects any evolution.

Take note that Oracle was enforced to recognize that the sofware may be reselled. In no part does the court sentence say that there was a clause in the contract that said, explicitly, it was NFR (at least, I didn't read it, and probably there isn't because they didn't even thought about that possibility). And the new user is entitled to download the software from their site forever. But what about new versions? What if Oracle comes with a "version n+1" of the product, or rebrand it, etc., and asks existing users to renegotiate their terms?

Second hand software is sold "as is", except if the publisher recognizes and accepts the license transfer. Otherwise, you will be ruled out of everything that is not "carved in stone" in the original license agreement. And there are a lot of things that are not in the original license, as we know (upgrades are one of them - no publisher ever promises upgrades in their EULAs).
But so many articles talking about the same thing cannot lie.
Oracle might not have had a NFR clause in their license terms but when a "general" rule has been spoken like "It is generally allowed to resell licenses" then every other license term that has a NFR clause is declared nonsense - at least again - in Germany.
Sure - people are able to read license policies and don't buy software that has a NFR clause but I still think companys shouldn't override local rights.

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weedywhizz wrote: But so many articles talking about the same thing cannot lie.
I wouldn't be so sure about that. Most newspapers get their news from news agency, and it's basically the same stuff which is written everywhere. I'd also like to know the legal situation on this topic in black and white.

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weedywhizz wrote: But so many articles talking about the same thing cannot lie.
Oracle might not have had a NFR clause in their license terms but when a "general" rule has been spoken like "It is generally allowed to resell licenses" then every other license term that has a NFR clause is declared nonsense - at least again - in Germany.
Sure - people are able to read license policies and don't buy software that has a NFR clause but I still think companys shouldn't override local rights.
Again, the problem doesn't reside in reselling the software, but in what comes afterwards. I, personally, would never buy software marked as NFR. You may be right, But I would not have to be forced to take the burden of a legal action against the publisher if he decided to not recognize my rights. And I have doubts about if would even win.

Of course I would be able to use the software "as is", and they couldn't (nor would I believe they would want to) forbid me to use it. But when I had to contact them to solve any issue, buy an upgrade or something, then what?
Fernando (FMR)

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weedywhizz wrote: Completely blocking resale -> sucks.
If you don't use the software any more you can put the software in trash. Senseless.
I had to do this with Synthogy's Ivory. I'm sure their EULA should be illegal by any standards. I couldn't sell it, I couldn't even give it away to some poor student. This was after they changed the product to require iLok for future updates (including 64-bit support). As I was migrating to a 64-bit machine I obviously wanted this support but don't want an iLok.

So it's OK for a company to change their product to require something it didn't before (and any music company knows not everyone will want iLok), but I can't then sell the product that has changed to something I would never have bought? That's wrong.

Ended up in the bin I was so livid with Synthogy.

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Mr Arkadin wrote:
weedywhizz wrote: Completely blocking resale -> sucks.
If you don't use the software any more you can put the software in trash. Senseless.
I had to do this with Synthogy's Ivory. I'm sure their EULA should be illegal by any standards. I couldn't sell it, I couldn't even give it away to some poor student. This was after they changed the product to require iLok for future updates (including 64-bit support). As I was migrating to a 64-bit machine I obviously wanted this support but don't want an iLok.

So it's OK for a company to change their product to require something it didn't before (and any music company knows not everyone will want iLok), but I can't then sell the product that has changed to something I would never have bought? That's wrong.

Ended up in the bin I was so livid with Synthogy.

Bummer. But that's what I'm going to do with Sylenth1 :tu:
No resell, no gift - just put in in trash and never buy again from that seller. Guess what other people might do in the future to use software like that .... :clap:

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Lol at first glance I saw wheedywhiz and is it legal, thought it was-is weed legal here in the Everything Else forum.

Personally I think that whole new law thing is a risk, I'm on the USA and do have Cakewalk/Image-Line stuff, but I'll sit on it.
The only site for experimental amp sim freeware & MIDI FX: http://runbeerrun.blogspot.com
https://m.youtube.com/channel/UCprNcvVH6aPTehLv8J5xokA -Youtube jams

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RunBeerRun wrote:Lol at first glance I saw wheedywhiz and is it legal, thought it was-is weed legal here in the Everything Else forum.

Personally I think that whole new law thing is a risk, I'm on the USA and do have Cakewalk/Image-Line stuff, but I'll sit on it.
:D
:lol:

I definitely think there is a good chance to win a lawsuit here in Germany.

I am a very legal user btw and pay for all my stuff. But I find more and more reasons why people use cracked stuff. Dongles, copy protection systems that kill your OS and license policys that make you put your bought software on a USB stick and burn it if you don't want to use it any more!

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weedywhizz wrote:But so many articles talking about the same thing cannot lie.
Oracle might not have had a NFR clause in their license terms but when a "general" rule has been spoken like "It is generally allowed to resell licenses" then every other license term that has a NFR clause is declared nonsense - at least again - in Germany.
Sure - people are able to read license policies and don't buy software that has a NFR clause but I still think companys shouldn't override local rights.
Maybe there is one misunderstanding here.
Like someone wrote already: EU does not make "laws".
The sentence of the EU court is not binding anyone in the EU now. It was a leading case, that is now given back to the german court to make a final decision in this case. Then the german (and other) government can make a general law about it (or not - then in similar cases anyone may start a case at court again).
ImageImage

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Just got an answer from Modartt (Pianoteq). I want to point out that my question about their opinion about the EU judgement has totally been ignored. So no addons and upgrade from Stage for me :roll:
The cost for the transfer is fine tough....

Dear XXX,

If you resell your licence (can only be done once per licence), the Blüthner Model 1 will be included. All instruments are connected to the licence and cannot be resold separately. The licence transfer fee is 29 Euro and covers our administration cost for assisting with the licence transfer to the new licence owner.

Regards,
xxxxxxxx
Sales & support
Pianoteq

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weedywhizz wrote: Bummer. But that's what I'm going to do with Sylenth1 :tu:
No resell, no gift - just put in in trash and never buy again from that seller. Guess what other people might do in the future to use software like that .... :clap:
But you CAN resell a Sylenth1 license after you have bought it (new). Why wouldn't you want to buy from LennarDigital with knowing that you CAN resell your license at a later point... I don't understand :?
Last edited by Nielzie on Sun Jun 22, 2014 12:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
No band limits, aliasing is the noise of freedom!

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Nielzie wrote:
weedywhizz wrote: Bummer. But that's what I'm going to do with Sylenth1 :tu:
No resell, no gift - just put in in trash and never buy again from that seller. Guess what other people might do in the future to use software like that .... :clap:
But you CAN resell a Sylenth1 license after you have bought it (new). Why wouldn't you want to buy from LennarDigital with knowing that your CAN resell you license at a later point... I don't understand :?
Yes I can resell in first place but it is fact that the value for the next customers decreases knowing that he/she cannot sell it any more. It is just not right. Peeps like U-HE does know about fair policies AND holding values up. Man I love this guy just for that.. :tu:

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weedywhizz wrote:
Nielzie wrote:
weedywhizz wrote: Bummer. But that's what I'm going to do with Sylenth1 :tu:
No resell, no gift - just put in in trash and never buy again from that seller. Guess what other people might do in the future to use software like that .... :clap:
But you CAN resell a Sylenth1 license after you have bought it (new). Why wouldn't you want to buy from LennarDigital with knowing that your CAN resell you license at a later point... I don't understand :?
Yes I can resell in first place but it is fact that the value for the next customers decreases knowing that he/she cannot sell it any more. It is just not right. Peeps like U-HE does know about fair policies AND holding values up. Man I love this guy just for that.. :tu:
That's the choice of the buyer of your license then. Some (actually lots of) people would be happy to buy your license at a reduced price even when they know it becomes NFR :)
No band limits, aliasing is the noise of freedom!

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Nielzie wrote:
weedywhizz wrote:
Nielzie wrote:
weedywhizz wrote: Bummer. But that's what I'm going to do with Sylenth1 :tu:
No resell, no gift - just put in in trash and never buy again from that seller. Guess what other people might do in the future to use software like that .... :clap:
But you CAN resell a Sylenth1 license after you have bought it (new). Why wouldn't you want to buy from LennarDigital with knowing that your CAN resell you license at a later point... I don't understand :?
Yes I can resell in first place but it is fact that the value for the next customers decreases knowing that he/she cannot sell it any more. It is just not right. Peeps like U-HE does know about fair policies AND holding values up. Man I love this guy just for that.. :tu:
That's the choice of the buyer of your license then. Some (actually lots of) people would be happy to buy your license at a reduced price even when they know it becomes NFR :)
Sure its the choice of the buyer. Some day they come to the point and don't need the software any more and the day has come the can flush the value down the toilet instead of selling it discounted to someone who can use it - or even just give it as a gift for a student or whatever when the license file is tagged and the policies forbid that...

BTW: Someone please recommend me a good piano software please.

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weedywhizz wrote:BTW: Someone please recommend me a good piano software please.
Ivory. Oh, hang on... :smack:

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Mr Arkadin wrote:
weedywhizz wrote:BTW: Someone please recommend me a good piano software please.
Ivory. Oh, hang on... :smack:
:lol:
I knew somebody would come up with this :borg:

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