NFR - legal in the EU ?

[Nielzie]

I am also in contact with LennarDigital, who stated that he DOES allow license transfers. My mail regarding EU laws and NFR is still unanswered...

LennarDigital does support licence transfers, but only one time after the license has been bought new. A lot of companies have that policy. I think it's even confirm the EU "laws" to do it that way.

[weedywhizz]

I am also in contact with LennarDigital, who stated that he DOES allow license transfers. My mail regarding EU laws and NFR is still unanswered...

LennarDigital does support licence transfers, but only one time after the license has been bought new. A lot of companies have that policy. I think it's even confirm the EU "laws" to do it that way.

Thats exactly in question here. I don't think there is a limitation spoken out from the court in how many time you are allowed to sell.

Here's another article btw:
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2012 ... -software/

[fmr]

Just got an answer from ImageLine:

Dear XXX,

License transfers are NOT supported and NOT allowed.
Right now Europa has ''guidelines'' which in no way are laws!
There's little we can do about people transferring licenses behind our
back. However we will not offer any cooperation in license transfers since
we do not believe the EU ruling applies to software which includes Lifetime
Free Updates.
When transferring licenses there is also the possibility of identity theft
as the buyer will have access to historic account data including address
etc. Our system will automatically lock accounts when they are used from
too many different IP locations so the chance remains the account will
render itself useless.
So wouldn't rather fund further development of an industry that's already
hit very hard by piracy? We receive a lot of complaints about people buying
a license transfer and ending up with a crack.
We have been giving away Lifetime Free Updates for over 15 years. We have
been doing this in the face of competition that charges customers for every
single update. We are proud of this promise and will continue, to deliver
with your continued support.

Best regards,

Image-Line Support Team

I think Image-Line rised some very good points here, that were not covered in the sentence issued by the court. I suspect that, if THIS case would be facing court, decision may be different.

As they say, a court decision is not a law.

[weedywhizz]

Just got an answer from ImageLine:

Dear XXX,

License transfers are NOT supported and NOT allowed.
Right now Europa has ''guidelines'' which in no way are laws!
There's little we can do about people transferring licenses behind our
back. However we will not offer any cooperation in license transfers since
we do not believe the EU ruling applies to software which includes Lifetime
Free Updates.
When transferring licenses there is also the possibility of identity theft
as the buyer will have access to historic account data including address
etc. Our system will automatically lock accounts when they are used from
too many different IP locations so the chance remains the account will
render itself useless.
So wouldn't rather fund further development of an industry that's already
hit very hard by piracy? We receive a lot of complaints about people buying
a license transfer and ending up with a crack.
We have been giving away Lifetime Free Updates for over 15 years. We have
been doing this in the face of competition that charges customers for every
single update. We are proud of this promise and will continue, to deliver
with your continued support.

Best regards,

Image-Line Support Team

I think Image-Line rised some very good points here, that were not covered in the sentence issued by the court. I suspect that, if THIS case would be facing court, decision may be different.

As they say, a court decision is not a law.

I disagree. After reading many of those articles one can conclude that it is prohibited for companys to block license transfers in their licence terms. But there is no question that Imageline has an awesome customer support.

http://curia.europa.eu/jcms/upload/docs ... 0094en.pdf
http://curia.europa.eu/juris/document/d ... id=5252243

[The_Hidden_Goose]

Court decisions don't make laws, but they can set legal precedents. It all depends on whether you're prepared to risk losing a suit.

Personally, I'm fine with companies that have NFR policies. I'll take it in to consideration when buying, and if I feel I may want to sell it (which is never so far), then I don't buy NFR products.

I'll never sell FLStudio. NEVER! You'll have to prise it from my cold dead hands!

[osiris]

NFR is for a reason, otherwise that one piece of software would just keep transferring. That doesn't mean you can't sell it - but it also means the company doesn't have to provide an update.

[weedywhizz]

NFR is for a reason, otherwise that one piece of software would just keep transferring. That doesn't mean you can't sell it - but it also means the company doesn't have to provide an update.

Good point but for extended support fees can be applied.
Are small companys like U-HE not in business any more because they allow resale - even after a time period of X. There are multiple ways to handle the support costs.

[chk071]

The problem is once again the bullshit EU law giving. It usually works like this: People complain that they can't sell software licenses which they bought online, EU says it is illegal to disallow the reselling of software, but on the other hand, every EULA is binding, unless it's proven to be illegal with a court decision. Great stuff isn't it? Give the people something so they can calm down, but when you look at it in detail, nothing has changed really. Who really enforces a law suit against illegal EULA's, when the chance is given that you lose the case, and you have to pay the whole thing?

[The_Hidden_Goose]

Therein lies the problem. So the solution is - don't buy NFR stuff if you think you might want to sell it. You know where you stand then.

[fmr]

NFR is for a reason, otherwise that one piece of software would just keep transferring. That doesn't mean you can't sell it - but it also means the company doesn't have to provide an update.

Good point but for extended support fees can be applied.
Are small companys like U-HE not in business any more because they allow resale - even after a time period of X. There are multiple ways to handle the support costs.

Exactly. Every time we install a software, it come accompanied with a LEGAL document which agreement is enforced, otherwise we cannot proceed with the installation. By installing, we implicitely agrre with the terms of the contract, and it is like we signed it.

It's difficult to argue later that we didn't agree with it, and if we did, there are laws that protect freedom of contracting, except when there are fundamental rights in danger (which its not the case here, IMO).

So, either the EU makes a LAW explicitly saying that clauses of NFR in EULAs are illegal, and not valid, or there will be very difficult to argue against them. Personally, I'm in favour of NFR, or to obtain permission from the company by paying a fee. It would be worst if the company said: "It's up to you. You may sell it, but the new user will never be recognized by us, and will not be entitled to assistance or upgrades". And there is nothing in law that forces them to act otherwise.

[weedywhizz]

Still interesting. Nearly every article at least in Germany points out that software can generally be resold in the EU. It is not mentioned that it is only meant for UsedSoft vs Oracle.
They all must be wrong I guess. Maybe a lawyer can tell me...

[osiris]

The software that I've bought NFR was so discounted, there was really no point to sell it...

[weedywhizz]

The software that I've bought NFR was so discounted, there was really no point to sell it...

Agreed. But software >100€ which rarely if ever has discounts put in trash ? Software that also rarely has any updates btw. and still not available in 32bit on some platforms...talking about support & updates.
Even though - its a general thing beside the amount of money paid.

[osiris]

I can see this point also. There's nothing that bothers me more than having software on my computer I don't use anymore, but that someone else might like to, but can't - because it's NFR...

[fmr]

Still interesting. Nearly every article at least in Germany points out that software can generally be resold in the EU.
They all must be wrong I guess. Maybe a lawyer can tell me...

Articles do not make law. And lawyers usually are not very well informed about the long term implications regarding a software license. The biggest issue here is not being allowed to resell software, but the consequences to the buyer if the publisher doesn't recognize him. It's not like a book, a CD or a DVD, which are selled "as is", and noone expects any evolution.

Take note that Oracle was enforced to recognize that the sofware may be reselled. In no part does the court sentence say that there was a clause in the contract that said, explicitly, it was NFR (at least, I didn't read it, and probably there isn't because they didn't even thought about that possibility). And the new user is entitled to download the software from their site forever. But what about new versions? What if Oracle comes with a "version n+1" of the product, or rebrand it, etc., and asks existing users to renegotiate their terms?

Second hand software is sold "as is", except if the publisher recognizes and accepts the license transfer. Otherwise, you will be ruled out of everything that is not "carved in stone" in the original license agreement. And there are a lot of things that are not in the original license, as we know (upgrades are one of them - no publisher ever promises upgrades in their EULAs).