Nobody appreciates small time electronic music makers/electronic musician for most is a lonely life

[fmr]

That's because it's something relatively easy to pick up. I know there can be much more dignity to electronic music than that, such as sound design, which is a whole universe in itself. But that said, I know people who can create a simple beat in Ableton in minutes without any music knowledge. It's much easier to do than writing a song on a guitar that's worth listening to.

Add to that the accessibility of Soundcloud and anyone's a rock star. With so many of these scenarios out there, not everyone of them can get noticed.

Your example brings up many of the concept problems that pretty much f**ck these things:

1. First - assembling a bunch of loops in Ableton is NOT electronic music. Actually, it will likely ending not being anything worthing AT ALL.
2. What people is now calling electronic music, or "electronica", is, in fact, EDM, or "Electronic Dance Music". Notice the DANCE word. It means that this music is "utilitarian", in that it serves a purpose that's extraneous to music itself. Therefore, we cannot consider it ART, since ART exists for and as itself, not to be used in dance floors, or supermarkets (of course it can be used anywhere, but it's purpose is to be as it is). The same way, movies soundtracks are "utilitarian music", although they sometimes reach a level of quality that reach the ART as of themselves.
3. What is properly called electronic music is vanguard music that started in academic music around in the 50s , and that was always created with the aim of being ART music, and still is produced. Wether they reach that level or not, is another discussion.
4. Mixing "rock" and "electronic" in the same phrase is adding more to the already very confused and confusing terminology. Rock has nothing to do with electronics. Some rock genres may use electronic instruments, but that's pretty much it.
5. Writing a song may be more difficult than assembling a bunch of loops, but creating an electronic piece that stands up as itself is much more difficult, and requires as much, if not more, talent, craftsmanship and musical knowledge than creating a song with three chords on your guitar.

[Functional]

Maybe it's because learning a guitar takes time and dedication and making electronic music is relatively easy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIqR08zw3xc

Go ahead and show me how easy it is to do that.

What you mean taking some pre-cooked samples and glitching 'em up a bit? Slightly tired trip-hop with some stutters is not exactly the greatest example of electronic that's "difficult" to do. It is, however, a fine example of how the technology can make something that sounds OK but has precious few ideas. Frankly, it's almost an offence to crate-digging because they've not even done much of a job of re-contextualising the samples.

Yes, exactly that. On paper sounds simple, in practice is quite not. Much like that underground techno, which is as "simple as it gets", yet, most people can't come up with an interesting concept out of a banging beat that loops on during the whole thing, with that whole minimalist concept.

I agree, technology makes things simpler. It's easy to do a decent beat as well with Ableton, but that won't cut it and most of underappreciated electronic artists stretch themselves beyond that, much like the example I gave. Then if we go to the mainroom EDM section with ghost producers and ideas that are repeated from one song to another, you have a lot of respect (from people who aren't exactly that interested into music).

But it's explainable by psychology anyway, so who cares. Not much to do about others ability to manipulate their audience with certain ideas and waves.

[RunBeerRun]

I don't think the original poster is coming back. He had some other thread where he was talking about he doesn't play any instrument whatsoever.

[Functional]

I don't think the original poster is coming back. He had some other thread where he was talking about he doesn't play any instrument whatsoever.

That's a bad attitude, I'd argue, but I guess passion for instruments will eventually grow up on 'em once they get to hear them in action. That's what happened to me, basically

[ntom]

But excellent guitarists are 10 a penny... All those heavy metal kids, who are in their 20's and 30's now, and who have been practicing three hours a day since they were 13.

Orly? Well gee, if they're that cheap why bother even learning guitar? It's not like I spent the past years with my music TRYING to get live musicians to collaborate with me and have yet to of successfully gotten a single one to contribute. Clearly I was only paying them 1/20 of a penny, guess I need to up my payment to a 1/10 of a penny, but, clearly, I should just give up learning to play the guitar myself since clearly they are so cheap to hire.

Your example brings up many of the concept problems that pretty much f**ck these things:

1. First - assembling a bunch of loops in Ableton is NOT electronic music. Actually, it will likely ending not being anything worthing AT ALL.

What are you even talking about? I slapped together a song that can stand on it's own within a few hours just last night - whether it's good or not is up for discussion, but that's not the point we're making here.

As for your definition of art, again: what are you even talking about?
So, video games have been recognized as an art form. They are meant to be played and the player is welcome to explore their options within the bounds of the game, but regardless the game is meant for enjoyment and to be played. That is it's job, so by your logical is is utilitarian and therefore no longer an art form?
I'm pretty certain any piece of media cannot only play a role, but be art at the same time.

[fmr]

Your example brings up many of the concept problems that pretty much f**ck these things:

1. First - assembling a bunch of loops in Ableton is NOT electronic music. Actually, it will likely ending not being anything worthing AT ALL.

What are you even talking about? I slapped together a song that can stand on it's own within a few hours just last night - whether it's good or not is up for discussion, but that's not the point we're making here.

As for your definition of art, again: what are you even talking about?
So, video games have been recognized as an art form. They are meant to be played and the player is welcome to explore their options within the bounds of the game, but regardless the game is meant for enjoyment and to be played. That is it's job, so by your logical is is utilitarian and therefore no longer an art form?
I'm pretty certain any piece of media cannot only play a role, but be art at the same time.

First: About your song stand up. I'll have to listen previously, of course, but a) you need to have some sense of musical organization first, and know what to do and where to go, and b) it is just half your work, anyway. My POV, which worths what it worths.

Second: I told you that "utilitarian" music can also be "art" music. I never said that is impossible, I just said that, in the majority of times, when people make music to an utilitarian function, they concentrate in other matters than music in and as itself, therefore, it's unlikely they can come up with an art work. But some very talented musicians have been able to do both at the same time along history. They are the exceptions, though, not the rule.

AND, I maintain what I said: Electronic music is NOT assembling loops, or building SONGS. A song is a musical form, and usually is meant to be sung (therefore... a song). It's not compatible with electronic music. You may have a song made with electronic instruments, or electronic sounds, but it is NOT electronic music. In the 80s, a bunch of kids appeared making songs with synthesizers. That movement was called electro-pop, which means pop music made with electronic instruments. It's different from electronic music. EDM is Electronic DANCE Music, which means dance music made with electronic means. Again, different from electronic music.

[Robmobius]

But excellent guitarists are 10 a penny... All those heavy metal kids, who are in their 20's and 30's now, and who have been practicing three hours a day since they were 13.

Orly? Well gee, if they're that cheap why bother even learning guitar? It's not like I spent the past years with my music TRYING to get live musicians to collaborate with me and have yet to of successfully gotten a single one to contribute. Clearly I was only paying them 1/20 of a penny, guess I need to up my payment to a 1/10 of a penny, but, clearly, I should just give up learning to play the guitar myself since clearly they are so cheap to hire.

Maybe they just didn't want to collaborate with you or your music...

[jancivil]

A really strange thing for me is KVR and this tendency to say 'Electronic Music' to stand for EDM or trance. I never encountered anything of the sort before.
I agree with Fernando more or less, as per this severe narrowing of the term to indicate things which merely use electronic means to a certain end. The end is something that really isn't there to exploit electronics, it just happens to have found synthesizers more convenient, and a sequencer a path to instant gratification where 'making beats' happens through a grid everything adheres to automatically, so your hihat straight sixteenths and four-on-the-floor with maybe a back beat is quick work (in lieu of ever getting independence of limbs going and so much as mastering a drum beat as on an Archies record).

And you'll see people that take a thread in Music Theory which really is restricted to what to do in a narrow idea of EDM, even, as though they mean electronic music really and this whole wide world, and we're tempted to become expansive. But why not, who cares about the OP after a point.

I changed my focus in school to 'Electronic Music', which was a major at SFCM. Alden Jenks headed it up.
Electronic musicians means to me people such as Milton Babbitt. Morton Subotnick.

This use of the term just seems to signal someone that was born yesterday with no sense of history or scale, that's got blinders on and a serious tunnel vision. So 'maybe we're ahead of our time' borders on delusional, I'm sorry.

[jancivil]

Your example brings up many of the concept problems that pretty much f**ck these things:

1. First - assembling a bunch of loops in Ableton is NOT electronic music. Actually, it will likely ending not being anything worthing AT ALL.

What are you even talking about? I slapped together a song that can stand on it's own within a few hours just last night - whether it's good or not is up for discussion, but that's not the point we're making here.

I know what Fernando is talking about. I don't know what point your 'we' is making here, it seems like you want to justify producing a song within a few hours.

That would mean a couple of things, such as one can make music in real time, even, which is called IMPROVISING and one may find the goal of real-time composition worthwhile, and as such can arrive at a piece of music with some facility; or it could mean slapping some loops on a timeline in service of a song idea having cut those corners. I think that's fine as long as one acknowledges what they "made" or didn't. My sense of your slapped-together song isn't helping your argumentative reaction to his point or helping me see there is some other point being made.

Whether or not the song is 'worth' doesn't affect it being 'electronic music' either way. So slapping some loops together in Live is not through itself electronic music. Doesn't seem difficult as a statement. He doesn't believe 'songs' suit his definition. Some of us been around a while and had serious curiosity about 'electronic music', rather than being in a hurry to 'produce' something to obtain approbation from the popular kids.

[Gamma-UT]

Mixing "rock" and "electronic" in the same phrase is adding more to the already very confused and confusing terminology. Rock has nothing to do with electronics. Some rock genres may use electronic instruments, but that's pretty much it.

Take these examples and place them into your artificial split between rock and electronic music, see what side they sit and whether that's consistent with the rest of the album or in the case of the second and third example even consistent within the track:

On The Run - Pink Floyd (Dark Side of the Moon)
Wahn - Tangerine Dream (Atem)
Through Metamorphic Rocks - Tangerine Dream (Force Majeure)

I haven't even got started on Faust and Neu! yet.

AND, I maintain what I said: Electronic music is NOT assembling loops, or building SONGS. A song is a musical form, and usually is meant to be sung (therefore... a song). It's not compatible with electronic music. You may have a song made with electronic instruments, or electronic sounds, but it is NOT electronic music. In the 80s, a bunch of kids appeared making songs with synthesizers. That movement was called electro-pop, which means pop music made with electronic instruments. It's different from electronic music. EDM is Electronic DANCE Music, which means dance music made with electronic means. Again, different from electronic music.

Looks like you're building an entirely arbitrary definition of what constitutes 'electronic music' for no sensible reason I can think of.

Electronic music can't be pop? Hmm, let's take the two renditions of Warm Leatherette by The Normal and Grace Jones. And just to keep the genre police on their toes don't forget the semi-orchestral version done by Jim Thirwell for the album Soak.

Or just try out the first two studio albums by the Human League. Dreams of Leaving is a pop song. But it has a three-second noise burst in the middle of it. So maybe it isn't. Oh, how shall we pigeonhole it?

And now EDM. The idea that electronic dance music is not electronic music is simply laughable – Derrick May and the gang definitely held that their approach was firmly in the techno-futurist camp with "George Clinton and Kraftwerk stuck in an elevator". I'd fully support their work as being electronic music if that's somehow a meaningful phrase.

[jancivil]

slapped together

I like that figure of speech, too. Got it from my father who built houses. It indicated something shoddy, though, isn't it.

[jancivil]

For my part, I would_not call Dark Side of the Moon 'electronic music', it's a rock album which uses synthesizers. I think they were pretty good at their job in use of tools, I do but that music to me is suitable for what I was for a summer, a 17 y.o. acidhead.

I think if one were to want to defend 'rock music has nothing to do with electronics' as a really true statement will be another matter.
It may be a minority position, but there's got to be a number of people here sick to death of 'electronic music' used with no qualification to signal something where the very term describes a mere means to an end.

[fmr]

Mixing "rock" and "electronic" in the same phrase is adding more to the already very confused and confusing terminology. Rock has nothing to do with electronics. Some rock genres may use electronic instruments, but that's pretty much it.

Take these examples and place them into your artificial split between rock and electronic music, see what side they sit and whether that's consistent with the rest of the album or in the case of the second and third example even consistent within the track:

On The Run - Pink Floyd (Dark Side of the Moon)
Wahn - Tangerine Dream (Atem)
Through Metamorphic Rocks - Tangerine Dream (Force Majeure)

I haven't even got started on Faust and Neu! yet.

Man, I don't know you and you don't know me, but when these albums were launched I was already around. As much as I love and respect Pink Floyd (and I do, believe me - PF are in my top in what concerns Rock), On The Run is NOT electronic music, although it may be in a somehow grey area. This is IMO, of course, and debatable, but I would need far too much writing to further explain you why I think the way I do. Tangerine Dream started as a band that was exploring electronics, and creating music that way, WITH electronic means, so, yeah, Atem CAN be considered electronic music (but not Rock). Force Majeure is already in the grey area, with some fragments in the electronic music field, but the majority of the algum already in the Rock field. And this in spite of I personally considering it one of their best albums, and way better than Atem.

Let's not talk about Faust and Neu - that's another story, but definitely NOT electronic music.

Regarding EDM, there is some EDM that again fall in the grey area (that's right, the world is not in black and white), and that can be considered even as ART music, in spite of being EDM. If your examples fall in that category is something I can't tell because I don't know them (EDM is not one of my main interests, I must confess), but I will try to find them and have a listen, and we can exchange opinions in private, if you want.

But in general, no, neither Rock nor EDM can be classified as electronic music. And this isn't telling they are minor or less deserving. It just means that the electronic music "umbrella" should be narrowed, otherwise we risk to loose the meaning. It's the same as telling that Barclay James Harvest were doing symphonic music in their early works, just because they were using a real (small) symphonic orchestra.

[Gamma-UT]

I think if one were to want to defend 'rock music has nothing to do with electronics' as a really true statement will be another matter.

That's my point and I was using DSotM as an example of the daftness of the claim. It's clearly 90 per cent a rock album. But at the same time, those artists were very keen to explore other areas.

Pete Townshend, for example, was very keen on Terry Reilly's work for at least a while. You could argue that taking elements of Rainbow in Curved Air and inserting them into Who's Next might not be entirely what Reilly intended. But there was clear cross-pollination between rock, electronica and the new wave of classical composers who used electronics. It was more than acidhead ramblings and the influence of electronic or electro-acoustic music goes a lot deeper than On The Run across a lot of these albums, from the early 70s right through to the present day. So arguing that rock has nothing to do with electronic music is just risible as well as pointless.

[jancivil]

Yeah, as a genre tag, meaning to me something someone in Amoeba Records is concerned with, stocking the record bins, I think putting those records, any/all of them, in the Electronic Music bin is a bad idea and clouds up the whole idea.

There could be 'dance music' that is 'electronic music' so my 'mere means to an end' can't perform as an absolute, but I hope my meaning is clear. As for the record bin, and people making a thread title at a music tech forum, I think the qualifier 'Dance' is a good idea and not that much extra work.