Why I don't use iLok and other Horror Stories

[chaosWyrM]

He hasn't discussed iLok at all. He came into the thread calling other people uppity

another lie.

what i said i didnt like is when people think that because they dont have a problem with it...that no one else should be able to express that they do.

No one said that, though. You probably wouldn't imagine how many people here will see the topic title and , it's been done to death.
Ben H suggested, quite reasonably that in threads about a product that uses a key for CP that there be moderation of it because of how they get so derailed.
The derailment factor is high and it's real.

This thread itself, I would tend to leave alone but you've gone wild flaming and I'd like to side with the call for moderation. Going this wild does look pretty childish.
Posturing with that bigass meme saying favoring teh dongle is a cult and brainwashed is way over the top.

The OP looks like someone with a lot of systemic problems there, the story told there shouldn't happen. So fine, it's using social media in order to vent. Someone comes in with a pro-dongle view and shit begins to fly. Too much dongle angst at KVR, I think. And I think 'teenage angst' is not far from the mark.

ive "gone wild flaming" have i?

Looks like it to me. And you go on some more:

as for the meaning...i absolutely never EVER said anything about "favoring" anything. if you would have read this thread...

Are you addressing me? I don't follow. NB: that isn't an invitation to go on some more with this line.

it is unfair to tell people that they shouldnt talk about a part of the software (or badger them about it when they do) simply because it is unimportant to you.

i hope that was clear enough.

This is pretty bellicose. I don't happen to share your POV, that doesn't mean I'm particularly stupid. Ben H's remarks which I reinforced were context-bound.
If you read them, you dismissed them in preference to characterizing them to suit your ranting.

lol...was the paceanetics meme over the top? it was also quite amusing.

Ok, now you're joking?...

i absolutely stand by my observation that the pro ilok people have been behaving like brainwashed cult members.

But now you're not. You doubled down on saying people were acting like iLok is a cult and freaking out. That's flaming, isn't it? How many days you at this so far?

unnecessarily charging in to defend their iloks from perceived attacks, and trying to tell everyone to just shut up about it already.

So if someone has a similar amount of energy behind a view you don't share, their behavior is questionable while you think you're ok.
You have ghettosynth stating his view, he states that he is interested in balancing the dongle rants for the developers, preferring dongles. That's "uppity".
Ben H who notices reality in that every thread about a product that uses them is subject to be derailed by it, which got old years ago...
and me more or less with that area of viewpoint.

The 'shut up about it already' has a context. You're telling people to shut up as much as anyone. My interest in fighting about fricken dongles is not so high, you know.
Just sayin'

lol

this is gonna be fast...sorry if i dont get to all your points.

lets just put it down to a fundamental difference in opinion as to what constitutes "flaming" shall we? we are miles apart on that.

bellicose? that? wow...again i cant help how thin skinned people may or may not be, if you feel thats bellicose...well ok then...its bellicose to you. i dont know what else to say...other than i think its quite a reach.

was i joking? you mean with the giant joke i posted? also i would appreciate that if you are going to quote me...then quote me...dont edit it. there was more to that that i guess just didnt fit your view enough to include. come on man, at least use an ellipsis to show you cut something out.

now im not...what? i still stand by the observation. again...if you think thats flaming...i dont know what to tell you. i dont.

from the wiki page "Flaming is a hostile and insulting interaction between Internet users, often involving the use of profanity."

i wasnt speaking to or about any specific person, and the people i was referencing were acting like ilok was a cult and freaking out. it was an observation. i call it truth, you call it flaming if you want. il could start saying all those people were flaming me and others with their allegations of "whining" and constant "derailing" of topics with their aggressive manner.

i think its downright silly to consider such things as flaming. but apparently you dont...ok.

and talk about context. i never said they couldnt express their opinions. what i said was their behavior was unfair and rude.

im not telling people to shut up...im saying they might want to not be so rude while expressing their opinions.

what was uppity was HOW they decided to express their opinions...not the fact that they did so.

i have zero interest in fighting about dongles...and i havent been. my stance is i wont use them...end of story, nothing to fight about. i also wont roll over just because people dont want to hear that viewpoint.

everyone else can use dongles all day...have a hundred, no skin off my back, but dont tell me i cant mention that i wont use one or belittle me when i do, it isnt very nice.

anyway...thanks for the laughs. i have a plane to catch in a couple of hours. someone tell sampleconstruct i finally left on my vacation...i know he was concerned.

some times you guys are just so stern. lighten up. none of this matters.

[polyslax]

Works for some, not for others.

Been using iLok for 10 years, never had an issue and much prefer it to other copy protection schemes. I definitely consider it a plus when making purchase decisions.

I wouldn't have a problem with people dropping a single reply into a plugin thread to voice their discontent with use of iLok. Unfortunately, it rarely stops at that. I just ignore the thread at that point, so it's not much of an issue for me, but I do feel bad for the devs who have threads crash and burn.

[jancivil]

this is gonna be fast...sorry if i dont get to all your points.

I don't so much care, and mostly tl;dr.

lets just put it down to a fundamental difference in opinion as to what constitutes "flaming" shall we? we are miles apart on that.

bellicose? that? wow... thin skinned people

/ their behavior was unfair and rude.

/ they might want to not be so rude while expressing their opinions.

Again, the people you don't agree with have to be guilty of questionable behavior while you doing exactly the same quality is AOK. Just sayin'

[ghettosynth]

Works for some, not for others.

Been using iLok for 10 years, never had an issue and much prefer it to other copy protection schemes. I definitely consider it a plus when making purchase decisions.

I knew I wasn't the only person on KVR who prefers dongles

I wouldn't have a problem with people dropping a single reply into a plugin thread to voice their discontent with use of iLok. Unfortunately, it rarely stops at that. I just ignore the thread at that point, so it's not much of an issue for me, but I do feel bad for the devs who have threads crash and burn.

I agree, and what you are talking about is exactly the kind of "me too" chain of whining that posting positive comments helps to disrupt. Despite the ongoing and misguided tirade, it isn't about shutting down conversation, it's about disrupting the chain of religious responses whether pro or con. What I tire of is what I would classify as mob behavior; with the negative responses, it starts with a "horror story" and by page ten someone's getting a rope. The positive threads, for example Omnisphere, are just as bad, just replace rope with a crown, or sainthood. The unchallenged hive-mind has a tendency to prevent a more balanced conversation from developing.

It's perfectly valid to like, dislike, or discuss, any copy protection mechanism, but, expect to have your opinion criticized and be prepared to accept that some of the responsibility might not be the vendors. In this case, I think that the OP was somewhat careless in installing software that he had concerns about.

[Arcane Master]

It's interesting to see iLok lovers (for the lack of a better term... I guess supporters would do it) come over here and take part in conversations (more like arguments at this point, but nevermind that). I mean, this isn't a product thread where someone is saying that they would buy the product if it didn't use iLok or a dongle for CP. It's a thread where people who don't support iLok and any other form of dongles share why they don't use iLok and share their horror stories. Not much of a reason for iLok supporters to be here.

Maybe some of them are just trying to get back at the users who, apparently, derail product topics by derailing this topic.... which is a bit childish IMHO. Or maybe they just really feel the need to voice their opinion and argue. Or maybe it's both. Who knows!? Either way, this is a thread for the telling of iLok horror stories and why certain people do not use them.

Of course, this is the internet and anyone is free to voice their opinion... and there are some that will do that wherever they want regardless of what anyone says.

[bluedad]

I'm still waiting to hear a horror story, other than the OP's.
Horror in the experience of using, not for being lynched over mentioning in some thread that they won't use it, in some thread.

I've used Cubase's dongle for 13 yrs with no problems; not even the time I threw my desktop computer in the front
seat of my car to use at a gig, and forgot about the dongle and it nearly cracked right in half. But it still worked.
I much, much prefer that to anything with C/R. Outright serial number would be great, but if the software I want
to use requires a dongle/ilok, no problem.

[Arcane Master]

I'm not surprised people who have horror stories aren't coming forward with them. They'll more than likely just be attacked. And if not that, then they'll be bombarded with "Oh, mine iLok works perfectly for me. Never one problem. It must be something you did wrong or something you didn't understand." Although I suppose one could consider that being attacked, although in a more passive manner.

I realize not all iLok supporters are not like that and I also realize that there are some good iLok stories out there. You hear about the good stories more than anything and I think it's probably because the ones on the other side of the field don't want to have to put up with any flak from the opposite side. I really don't blame them.

[ghettosynth]

I'm not surprised people who have horror stories aren't coming forward with them. They'll more than likely just be attacked. And if not that, then they'll be bombarded with "Oh, mine iLok works perfectly for me. Never one problem. It must be something you did wrong or something you didn't understand." Although I suppose one could consider that being attacked, although in a more passive manner.

Seriously? Having a discussion and asking questions to someone who claims that X is a problem is not an attack. It isn't about pointing fingers, it's about trying to understand if the problem is real or not. You must be new here because most discussions of ilok are quite negative. For me, it is a serious issue. Cycling 74 decided not to use iLok after using it for years. I haven't upgraded to seven yet, and I might not because of this.

I want devs to consider dongles, they protect a developer's interests and give the most freedom to the consumer short of a simple serial or no copy protection at all. I am defining freedom in the same sense that I view hardware. I can use all of my hardware with any computer that I choose, albeit, only one at a time. I want that same freedom for my software.

[robotmonkey]

I am defining freedom in the same sense that I view hardware. I can use all of my hardware with any computer that I choose, albeit, only one at a time. I want that same freedom for my software.

In that case the only thing giving you real freedom is a serial or keyfile. For example I have computer in city and in a country house in the other end of the country. In that setup dongle is actually a huge liability. Not only is it very easy to forget to take it every time I go from one place to another, there's also a good chance of loosing it. If I would forgot to take a dongle with me, for example, when returning to the city, it would mean at least a week or two of lost productivity every time. If I would happen to loose it, not only would it mean several weeks minimum of downtime but it would also have additional hassle and costs of getting a new dongle and new licenses. With serial/keyfile none of this could ever happen.

The simple and undeniable fact is that dongles put all the risks and cost of protecting someones else property onto paying users.

[jancivil]

The two worst situations, no exaggeration, I've experienced were 1) Nebula, which quit working more than once mysteriously and one is forced to deal with the proprietor via email, and as nice a man as he is he's not terrifically responsive. Finally I sold it. and 2) FXPansion where a fourth, illegal authorization I wasn't aware of popped up after a cache cleaning and I had no drums for four days because of their server issues.

Versus: I broke my dongle with very nearly all my VSL and my Steinberg on it. This was right before a holiday and I was working. I had ignored to do even the My Steinberg registration after the Yahama takeover and a change. I had zero downtime even as Steiny US had closed down the phones, because VSL key meant that they gave me 180 starts on absolutely everything, and I got someone through email that stayed with me at Steiny. I mailed VSL the broken key and that was sorted nicely within a week.
I mean I lost the one afternoon. The other cases, and I really feel the serial key was my least 'free' experience and the worst of all possible worlds, were terrible.

Your argument for more freedom has you forgetting to bring your dongle with you, and liable to otherwise fail to be responsible for it; rather a suspect basis is it not.
Your conclusion is rather absurd, the actual premise is that there ought be no copy-protection because you paid for something. Unrealistic.

[robotmonkey]

The two worst situations, no exaggeration, I've experienced were 1) Nebula, which quit working more than once mysteriously and one is forced to deal with the proprietor via email, and as nice a man as he is he's not terrifically responsive. Finally I sold it. and 2) FXPansion where a fourth, illegal authorization I wasn't aware of popped up after a cache cleaning and I had no drums for four days because of their server issues.

Versus: I broke my dongle with very nearly all my VSL and my Steinberg on it. This was right before a holiday and I was working. I had ignored to do even the My Steinberg registration after the Yahama takeover and a change. I had zero downtime even as Steiny US had closed down the phones, because VSL key meant that they gave me 180 starts on absolutely everything, and I got someone through email that stayed with me at Steiny. I mailed VSL the broken key and that was sorted nicely within a week.
I mean I lost the one afternoon. The other cases, and I really feel the serial key was my least 'free' experience and the worst of all possible worlds, were terrible.

Your argument for more freedom has you forgetting to bring your dongle with you, and liable to otherwise fail to be responsible for it; rather a suspect basis is it not.
Your conclusion is rather absurd, the actual premise is that there ought be no copy-protection because you paid for something. Unrealistic.

What you are talking about is challange/response. With serial/keyfile you install software on both computers and forget it. There's absolutely no chance anything will brake or happen until you do a complete reinstall of your system. Ok, maybe upgrading could require inputting a serial again one in a while. 10 years later you can still use the software without the problems even if the dev has gone under. Serial/keyfile is the only thing that guarantees you problem free software and also guarantees that your investment in software is protected into the future and also that guarantees you actual freedom.

Every other copy protection mechanism I have seen fail many many times over in my work. Serial - never.

[ghettosynth]

I am defining freedom in the same sense that I view hardware. I can use all of my hardware with any computer that I choose, albeit, only one at a time. I want that same freedom for my software.

In that case the only thing giving you real freedom is a serial or keyfile. For example I have computer in city and in a country house in the other end of the country. In that setup dongle is actually a huge liability. Not only is it very easy to forget to take it every time I go from one place to another, there's also a good chance of loosing it. If I would forgot to take a dongle with me, for example, when returning to the city, it would mean at least a week or two of lost productivity every time. If I would happen to loose it, not only would it mean several weeks minimum of downtime but it would also have additional hassle and costs of getting a new dongle and new licenses. With serial/keyfile none of this could ever happen.

Then why don't developers choose serials/keyfiles? Cmon, it should be obvious that serials are usually the optimum choice but few developers choose them because they don't protect software as well/easily. Mad props to Urs for going that route. The only downside that I can see to serials is if you had hundreds of plugins that required manual entry of serials, then, I'd actually prefer dongles to serials.

So, in your scenario, dongles are certainly more risky than a serial, but, you don't get that freedom with C/R because you have no choice but to buy two licenses. Like I said, dongles are the ONLY method that gives you the freedom AND protects the developer's interests. With C/R, you don't have that freedom unless the dev allows you multiple installs, some do, many do not. I seriously tire of Ableton's nanny C/R.

I don't have your problem. I don't need to travel very much with my dongles. I do, however, need to move my dongles across the room, or to another building, sometimes to a gig. I don't worry about losing them any more than I worry about losing any other piece of hardware.

The simple and undeniable fact is that dongles put all the risks and cost of protecting someones else property onto paying users.

You can't blame devs for the software piracy problem any more than you can blame landlords for shit tenants. All forms of copy protection burden the user to some degree, even serials, and all forms of copy protection have the primary, if not sole, purpose of protecting the author's intellectual property. The question isn't whether that is intrinsically bad, but it is about the tradeoffs of each method and that's the only thing that I'm concerned about. If you want true freedom, you would use only open source software. Unfortunately, there isn't enough of that in terms of music software to satisfy me, so, I'm willing to accept some cost in return for the opportunity to use higher quality software.

[jancivil]

The two worst situations, no exaggeration, I've experienced were 1) Nebula, which quit working more than once mysteriously and one is forced to deal with the proprietor via email, and as nice a man as he is he's not terrifically responsive. Finally I sold it. and 2) FXPansion where a fourth, illegal authorization I wasn't aware of popped up after a cache cleaning and I had no drums for four days because of their server issues.

What you are talking about is challange/response.

Nebula is a serial key. FXPansion is C/R.

So you've never had a serial key fail = infallible? "absolutely no chance anything will brake or happen until you do a complete reinstall of your system."
That is simply not true. The other logic fail here is ignoring that computers die, like all machines. Key fails, you need a new key. I needed a new key one too many times with Nebula. I know my experience was not unique.

I lost my Yellow Tools dongle during a move and I was SOL. Typically I keep up with my valuables alright.

[robotmonkey]

Then why don't developers choose serials/keyfiles? Cmon, it should be obvious that serials are usually the optimum choice but few developers choose them because they don't protect software as well/easily. Mad props to Urs for going that route.

There are plenty of great developers who actually do. Urs, Camel Audio (formely), Fabfilter, Plug and Mix, Imageline, Valhalla, Ohforce, Cakewalk tha come to mind immediately. Some of them probably have the sh1t pirated out of their products but they still seem to do fine. Just look out what Image Line has to say about it. Some of those plugins have never been properly cracked (uhe, CA).

The thing is that pretty much every C/R system out there is cracked also. So Waves, Arturia, Native Instruments have also the sh1t pirated out of their plugins.

But in the end all that matters is that these are the plugins that have become the industry standard. Everyone have them installed on their computers, legally or not, and these are the plugins young kids are growing up using. So you might have your precious plugin protected with the most advanced and unbreakable protection that is also a huge punishment for your paying customers, but only 10 people are using it. But have you gained anything from it really?

[robotmonkey]

The two worst situations, no exaggeration, I've experienced were 1) Nebula, which quit working more than once mysteriously and one is forced to deal with the proprietor via email, and as nice a man as he is he's not terrifically responsive. Finally I sold it. and 2) FXPansion where a fourth, illegal authorization I wasn't aware of popped up after a cache cleaning and I had no drums for four days because of their server issues.

What you are talking about is challange/response.

Nebula is a serial key. FXPansion is C/R.

So you've never had a serial key fail = infallible? "absolutely no chance anything will brake or happen until you do a complete reinstall of your system."
That is simply not true. The other logic fail here is ignoring that computers die, like all machines. Key fails, you need a new key. I needed a new key one too many times with Nebula. I know my experience was not unique.

I lost my Yellow Tools dongle during a move and I was SOL. Typically I keep up with my valuables alright.

As long as you have your installers backed up with serial there's just no possible way for a serial to fail. It's very easy to reliably back up your serial protected software so that it could be used decades later, if needed.

If a new version needs a new serial then it's like buying a new piece of software anyway.

The only time one could say I have seen serial fail, is probably somewhere in the first half of the 90's where in some very rare cases it could happen that there was a wrong serial printed on a serial card.