complexity in psytrance

[Katelyn]

It would seem these days that most psychedelic trance tends towards the minimalist, progressive type of sound. Back in the 90's Goa was at it's height and tended to be more complex in pretty much all regards.

That's why when I found this track this morning I was quiet surprised:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7IyNdxQuTg

Some could argue that the simplicity in modern psytrance is a quality of it adding to the hypnotizing aspect of the music, but I disagree. Repetition of elements in an evolving soundscape is what does it for me. Likewise the track vaguely reminded me of what I find myself trying to do at times in terms of complexity. So I thought that after i analyzed it for myself to ask the more experienced members of KVR their opinion on this track.

So from a producer's/artist's point of view, what is your opinion on this track? Does the amount of sounds in it harm the mix? Anything they did particularly right or wrong?

[Zexila]

It would seem these days that most psychedelic trance tends towards the minimalist, progressive type of sound. Back in the 90's Goa was at it's height and tended to be more complex in pretty much all regards.

That's why when I found this track this morning I was quiet surprised:

Did you slept over last decade, this is full on sound of last decade circa 2006, this guy is Bizzare Contact copycat pretty much.

Some could argue that the simplicity in modern psytrance is a quality of it adding to the hypnotizing aspect of the music, but I disagree.

Me too, it's following trends and having more polished sterile mixes.

So from a producer's/artist's point of view, what is your opinion on this track? Does the amount of sounds in it harm the mix? Anything they did particularly right or wrong?

I'm not pro, being listening this genre since goa, it doesn't harm anything, this is music for parties and there's even worst produced tracks that still today can tear any dancefloor apart, like this one

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeEP9htFlao

Only thing they did wrong is to abandon this style and start getting into more trancy cheerful/cheesy land from 2007 and up and now landing into some prog/minimal beatport one.

@5:41, that's it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-vRGy1u4hKo

[Katelyn]

Did you slept over last decade, this is full on sound of last decade circa 2006, this guy is Bizzare Contact copycat pretty much.

I only started listening to psytrance in the last 3 years, so ya lol. Most full on I come across is stuff more akin to Talamasca than this.

I'm not that old, at that time I was listening to a lot of popular radio friendly metal as a teenager.

[Zexila]

It would seem these days that most psychedelic trance tends towards the minimalist, progressive type of sound. Back in the 90's Goa was at it's height and tended to be more complex in pretty much all regards.

I only started listening to psytrance in the last 3 years, so ya lol. Most full on I come across is stuff more akin to Talamasca than this.

I'm not that old, at that time I was listening to a lot of popular radio friendly metal as a teenager.

Sorry, I misread that 90's part, it felt weird like how he skipped a decade

If you are into that track, 2002-2007 is your friend, many just did what sounded right for the track, but not for the mix, you can hear barely decent mixes, but with good content and drive, with lot's of elements that are made for listeners/dancers enjoyment and ride, still not much if you look at goa, but still in some way it just works more for dancing opposed to tripping.

Also you can notice how much is invested in that short fill's and breaks, many just did it manually or with Glitch/LiveCut, as listeners and wannabe artist's, that was important stuff too, everything was except how mix sounds, nobody cared about that, but that generations aren't active anymore and today it's more about production.

So if you want to pull out something like that, let the mix suffer, if not, than sacrifice it and have good mix, you can have both, but in some way I feel the more you want to have, more headaches you will going to have to pull out if you want it to be perfect, if not, than Bob's your uncle

[Katelyn]

edit" woops

I somehow lost my response in here, Ill retype it when i can

[Zexila]

Sure, no sweat, have a feeling I failed to understand you completely.

But if you ask me, I would rather go for less is more, I'm here just trying to show you how production aspect isn't more important than content, so in some way, what is wrong or right is solely on listener, being that production or content of a track.

We can pin point in every track what's wrong and what could be better, having in mind how psytrance of past is made, there's something to talk about for sure, but what is great in there is more important.

Minimalism is getting back in the peak of technology, I mean, I understand that in 90's, but now, when one on laptop can pursue majority of his crazy ideas and explore everything with great flexibility, what's the deal with it...well..as I said...music changed, it's more about getting fat bass and huge sound from few elements, than having a story, it's music for DJ set's more, similar arrangements and sounds, getting played&payed.

So why this again is important, well, when you do music to get payed, you do it differently, when you did music because you were crazy yahoo, than you did it differently, I have no issue with them making money and paying rent, but I have with course that music took because of that and real problem is that many just follow that course, so it's not their fault, but they aren't entirely innocent either.

Just do whatever you visioned, even if it's over the top and muddying up, there's handful of people who are so high they don't know which year it is, not paying attention to your mix, but they are into your story completely, that's all there is even for many others that aren't flying high, but just like the music, they appreciate the story again, details, how that makes them feel.

Of course, I'm not saying don't mix a thing, I'm saying don't obsess about mix, do it best you can trying not to sacrifice content that much, okay, sometimes you just can't pull something because it's really too much, but there is fine line there and one should find it in favor of his story more.

[chaosWyrM]

Some could argue that the simplicity in modern psytrance is a quality of it adding to the hypnotizing aspect of the music, but I disagree. Repetition of elements in an evolving soundscape is what does it for me....

So from a producer's/artist's point of view, what is your opinion on this track? Does the amount of sounds in it harm the mix? Anything they did particularly right or wrong?

well, that argument was being used back in the early 00's. there was at that time a rift forming between the "full on" sound and the "minimal" sound. i dont really understand what youre saying as it seems contradictory...on the one hand you say you disagree with the simplicity adding to its hypnotic quality, and then you say the repitition of evolving elements is what you like...those 2 things are the same.

the example song you gave was not "simple" in terms of minimalism, it was pretty typical (and in my opinion, uninspired) full on. in fact the guy has it labeled as fullon on his soundcloud.

if you want examples of repetitive, evolving, minimal psytrance:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZvMY-CyOQI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3lUww05hz8I

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQXWtH9u1-8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VJbhmvQKcc



of course i dont particularly think full on is complex either...its just frantic...not the same thing.

if you want complex psytrance, youre better off looking at some good darkpsy guys:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNwIKhy8zfA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZpZltRB2njM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f30lQ0hpglw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJFnu_YZvDo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRWXzXEqg74


the difference (to me) between full on and darkpsy in regards to complexity is that fullon is like a bunch of individual building blocks placed next to each other, each piece not relating much to the last...its not fluid, whereas darkpsy, while retaining the energy, does a lot more interweaving and manipulating of sounds.

i did specify "good" darkpsy because a lot (like A LOT) of darkpsy is a squelchy frantic mess.

the amount of sounds isnt what harms a mix...there are plenty of examples of lots of sounds jammed into a track and everything is clear and precise.

[Zexila]

the amount of sounds isnt what harms a mix...there are plenty of examples of lots of sounds jammed into a track and everything is clear and precise.

Not everyone is Psykovsky

But what is most important, did you managed to pull it off or your heard some Russian aliens did it?

There's insane level of commitment and decades of experience behind that, that's not what someone get's if he focuses for few hours, that's what he get's if he loose more than a decade obsessing about it and bleeding trough his ears.

But than what potentially harms the mix, if not ingredients of it, pretty bold statement, there's people who can pull off anything, there's people who can't pull of one kick and bass, but who got it easier, 150+ channels guy or 2 channels guy?

if you want examples of repetitive, evolving, minimal psytrance:

That's not psytrance, that's progressive

Many actually call UK psytrance just psytrance, it kinda is, progressive, full on, dark, hi tech and etc clearly have their direction, this stuff is just good old psytrance

http://soundcloud.com/martianarts

Just came to my mind, if you want to compare it to metal, darkpsy is kinda black metal, full on is power/newer is Nu and UK psytrance is heavy/trash

[chaosWyrM]

the amount of sounds isnt what harms a mix...there are plenty of examples of lots of sounds jammed into a track and everything is clear and precise.

Not everyone is Psykovsky

But what is most important, did you managed to pull it off or your heard some Russian aliens did it?

There's insane level of commitment and decades of experience behind that, that's not what someone get's if he focuses for few hours, that's what he get's if he loose more than a decade obsessing about it and bleeding trough his ears.

But than what potentially harms the mix, if not ingredients of it, pretty bold statement, there's people who can pull off anything, there's people who can't pull of one kick and bass, but who got it easier, 150+ channels guy or 2 channels guy?

if you want examples of repetitive, evolving, minimal psytrance:

That's not psytrance, that's progressive

Many actually call UK psytrance just psytrance, it kinda is, progressive, full on, dark, hi tech and etc clearly have their direction, this stuff is just good old psytrance

http://soundcloud.com/martianarts

Just came to my mind, if you want to compare it to metal, darkpsy is kinda black metal, full on is power/newer is Nu and UK psytrance is heavy/trash

no, not everyone is psykovsky...psykovsky is the best of the best. but psykovsky isnt the only one who manages to make a complex mix sound pristine. the point is that its possible to do, and is done all the time.

the level of difficulty is meaningless. were not talking about how hard it is to do, or the amount of talent and skill thats required to make a good psytrance track. were talking about respective complexities of sounds...minimalism vs maximalism with regards to mix quality. you can have a complex good sounding track that is still minimal in its composition, AND you can have a complex track with lots of elements that also sounds good.

what i said was the AMOUNT of sounds is not what harms a mix, because it isnt, the choice of sounds and the composition are what potentially harm it.

and...those examples are absolutely psytrance. "progressive" is not a genre of music...you could call those examples "progressive (or simply progress) psytrance", as people did back in the day, but the original and much much more used term was "minimal".

the term "progressive", while it was used by some people to refer to minimal, was always a bad choice of words...because people would call it "progressive trance" (leaving off the psy), and confusion would occur because "progressive trance" is an entirely different style of music thats not related to psytrance at all. its that euro club trance stuff.

i mean just go to youtube and put the search terms in:

minimal psytrance

progressive psytrance

progressive trance

the first 2 will give a lot of the same results...the last one...totally different.

i mean seriously...youre trying to tell me that m.o.s., atmos, son kite, and auricular, ARENT psytrance?

crazy talk.

ive never heard of anything called "uk psytrance" (and youtube doesnt have a single hit for that search term, nor does ektoplazm have a category called "uk psytrance") and i dont know much about various kinds of metal, so i cant comment on that.

[Zexila]

no, not everyone is psykovsky...psykovsky is the best of the best. but psykovsky isnt the only one who manages to make a complex mix sound pristine. the point is that its possible to do, and is done all the time.

Of course, there is Kindzadza too

What I mean, it's not that common and not many can pull it off and yes it is possible I never said it's impossible, but cost of it it really lot of dedication to technical aspect and for someone who started out can lead to path of frustration and minimal music outcome, sacrificing ideas in favor of sounding like some non usual skilled artist.

the level of difficulty is meaningless. were not talking about how hard it is to do, or the amount of talent and skill thats required to make a good psytrance track.

That is exactly what I said and that doesn't come if you really focus for few hours one nigh, that's making your life's goal to reach that and people should make music and enjoy instead of crying and bleeding, getting their world fall apart every time they put themselves against folks like that.

were talking about respective complexities of sounds...minimalism vs maximalism with regards to mix quality.

Maybe you, we are talking about having few elements going opposed to having lot off them and retaining same quality of mix, if you had read, I said, let your vision win even if it's going to sound better without it, music shouldn't suffer because of production.

you can have a complex good sounding track that is still minimal in its composition, AND you can have a complex track with lots of elements that also sounds good.

You can have only kick going so modulated that can make anyone on DMT tripping like mad too, nobody is denying that.

what i said was the AMOUNT of sounds is not what harms a mix, because it isnt, the choice of sounds and the composition are what potentially harm it.

It's egg, not the chicken, exactly, I never excluded that, it's everything, amount, choice and arrangement, if you want to exclude amount, be my guest.

and...those examples are absolutely psytrance. "progressive" is not a genre of music...you could call those examples "progressive (or simply progress) psytrance", as people did back in the day, but the original and much much more used term was "minimal".

So what I did do wrong calling it like I always called it

the term "progressive", while it was used by some people to refer to minimal, was always a bad choice of words...because people would call it "progressive trance" (leaving off the psy), and confusion would occur because "progressive trance" is an entirely different style of music thats not related to psytrance at all. its that euro club trance stuff.

Well, who cares, inside of this scene everyone knows what it is and that's how it's called since beginning and that's how it will stay as far as we are concerned.

i mean seriously...youre trying to tell me that m.o.s., atmos, son kite, and auricular, ARENT psytrance?

No, I'm telling you they are progressive

crazy talk.

Indeed

ive never heard of anything called "uk psytrance" (and youtube doesnt have a single hit for that search term, nor does ektoplazm have a category called "uk psytrance") and i dont know much about various kinds of metal, so i cant comment on that.

Because you are getting politically correct and nerdy about it, instead of just being part of the lingo and crowd, many call that UK psytrance, we for sure don't need Ektoplazm or YouTube confirmation to do it or we are going to change that suddenly, same as progress/progressive and every other thing it's done all the time and usual.

[chaosWyrM]

no, not everyone is psykovsky...psykovsky is the best of the best. but psykovsky isnt the only one who manages to make a complex mix sound pristine. the point is that its possible to do, and is done all the time.

Of course, there is Kindzadza too

What I mean, it's not that common and not many can pull it off and yes it is possible I never said it's impossible, but cost of it it really lot of dedication to technical aspect and for someone who started out can lead to path of frustration and minimal music outcome, sacrificing ideas in favor of sounding like some non usual skilled artist.

the level of difficulty is meaningless. were not talking about how hard it is to do, or the amount of talent and skill thats required to make a good psytrance track.

That is exactly what I said and that doesn't come if you really focus for few hours one nigh, that's making your life's goal to reach that and people should make music and enjoy instead of crying and bleeding, getting their world fall apart every time they put themselves against folks like that.

were talking about respective complexities of sounds...minimalism vs maximalism with regards to mix quality.

Maybe you, we are talking about having few elements going opposed to having lot off them and retaining same quality of mix, if you had read, I said, let your vision win even if it's going to sound better without it, music shouldn't suffer because of production.

you can have a complex good sounding track that is still minimal in its composition, AND you can have a complex track with lots of elements that also sounds good.

You can have only kick going so modulated that can make anyone on DMT tripping like mad too, nobody is denying that.

what i said was the AMOUNT of sounds is not what harms a mix, because it isnt, the choice of sounds and the composition are what potentially harm it.

It's egg, not the chicken, exactly, I never excluded that, it's everything, amount, choice and arrangement, if you want to exclude amount, be my guest.

and...those examples are absolutely psytrance. "progressive" is not a genre of music...you could call those examples "progressive (or simply progress) psytrance", as people did back in the day, but the original and much much more used term was "minimal".

So what I did do wrong calling it like I always called it

the term "progressive", while it was used by some people to refer to minimal, was always a bad choice of words...because people would call it "progressive trance" (leaving off the psy), and confusion would occur because "progressive trance" is an entirely different style of music thats not related to psytrance at all. its that euro club trance stuff.

Well, who cares, inside of this scene everyone knows what it is and that's how it's called since beginning and that's how it will stay as far as we are concerned.

i mean seriously...youre trying to tell me that m.o.s., atmos, son kite, and auricular, ARENT psytrance?

No, I'm telling you they are progressive

crazy talk.

Indeed

ive never heard of anything called "uk psytrance" (and youtube doesnt have a single hit for that search term, nor does ektoplazm have a category called "uk psytrance") and i dont know much about various kinds of metal, so i cant comment on that.

Because you are getting politically correct and nerdy about it, instead of just being part of the lingo and crowd, many call that UK psytrance, we for sure don't need Ektoplazm or YouTube confirmation to do it or we are going to change that suddenly, same as progress/progressive and every other thing it's done all the time and usual.

ok, whatever. so in short...you didnt really mean anything you actually wrote, and im supposed to just know what you did mean? and im also supposed to just "be a part of the lingo"...lingo that no one uses or knows what it means.

you cant use some kind of localized terms and expect people to know what your saying. "uk psytrance" isnt a thing, at least not a thing anyone outside your local clique is going to have any idea of. my point about youtube and ektoplazm was simply to show examples of how its not a term commonly used in the psytrance scene...so how am i supposed to know what it is youre talking about?

and you did in fact say those werent psytrance...thats exactly what you said:

"That's not psytrance, that's progressive"

there is no such thing as "progressive" on its own. progressive what? the word progressive is put in front of a bunch of different genres of music...you need to specify which one you mean.

sorry man...youre all over the map.

hopefully the op will be able to get what i was saying without being confused by you.

im out.

[Zexila]

ok, whatever. so in short...you didnt really mean anything you actually wrote, and im supposed to just know what you did mean?

No I said everything I mean, but you are adding what you think I do, you are the one that left bold statement in first place and I asked you about it, I'm expanding on my opinion in this whole thread.

and im also supposed to just "be a part of the lingo"...lingo that no one uses or knows what it means.

YOU don't use it or know what it means, because you aren't part of it as you said, there's plenty people that does and you are obviously not among them.

you cant use some kind of localized terms and expect people to know what your saying. "uk psytrance" isnt a thing,

It is a thing, maybe not in one country where you live, but it's a thing in many countries worldwide

at least not a thing anyone outside your local clique is going to have any idea of. my point about youtube and ektoplazm was simply to show examples of how its not a term commonly used in the psytrance scene...so how am i supposed to know what it is youre talking about?

Local, you mean outside USA and Canada, that's two countries and not even relevant that much in scene

and you did in fact say those werent psytrance...thats exactly what you said:

"That's not psytrance, that's progressive"

Well, I expanded immediately what I take for psytrance and if you look down, I did it once again, but I give it you this one, I failed to be totally politically correct, I should cover that I don't mean that progressive isn't psychedelic trance and i don't think about house or any other genre when I say progressive, hope now is clearer

there is no such thing as "progressive" on its own. progressive what? the word progressive is put in front of a bunch of different genres of music...you need to specify which one you mean.

Are we talking here about house or what, if you are trying to be so correct and full of facts and history, than crack this one up, what you call that original genre that gave birth to dark, full on, progressive, how you call that one, classify it, we call it UK psytrance or just psytrance, even if the acts are not from UK, it's just straight from the roots psychedelic trance, not progressive not full on and etc, how in your local community you call this genre?

sorry man...youre all over the map.

Exactly and you are just located in one place for which you think is actually relevant.

hopefully the op will be able to get what i was saying without being confused by you.

It's obvious really, why wouldn't he, I actually expanded on my taught's and OP left full on, so I kept talking about full on, you came and bombarded thread with bunch of darkpsy You Tube videos, again, OP mentioned something different than progressive, but you needed to post progressive again than left everything on "the amount of sounds isn't what harms a mix...there are plenty of examples of lots of sounds jammed into a track and everything is clear and precise.", of course, no further explanations and examples, so I asked you about it and we had little talk, touched sub genres a little, what's messy about it, maybe when one is trying to scroll down after your post, You Tube videos start popping out

im out.

Me too, no need to respond, whatever you call that genre or you even see that as genre or whatever,your thing, I said everything I wanted to OP and to you, this thread is pretty much over for me at this point, so heads up about witting response, don't

[llze]

check out Filteria

[Zexila]

Logic Bomb also

[dekadenz]

Trance is not my cup of tea, but this Psymon track in the first post speaks more to me than darkpsy and minimal stuff posted later. I definitely get your tastes.

Despite being completely saccharine, there is something very 90's about full on subgenre. It's the music for dancing on something, not for watching DJ with a bottle of beer.

By the way, horrible production with flat and glossy brickwalled modern sound. This track is derivative, but it deserves for better mastering at least, which will allow actual punch and dynamic range like 90s tracks, even slammed to the point of distortion.

Bricked tracks might appear ok on laptop speakers, but totally sucks on actual dancefloor on full volume. Another reason why old ones will destroy almost any new stuff.