Adagio cellos - your thoughts?
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- KVRian
- 1113 posts since 18 Jan, 2004 from Los Angeles, California, USA
Thanks @Burillo, I'm glad it's helpful to you.
It's already really long in the current form so I haven't gone into detail for each of the libraries on each topic, but hopefully this gets you started thinking about what you are looking for so that you can look up more on the libraries that interest you most.
I tried to really be as inclusive in the initial list as possible (from "free" to libraries exceeding $1,000) but if anyone notices one that I left out, please mention it. I didn't mention Synful Orchestra, so I'm going back to add that now.
It's already really long in the current form so I haven't gone into detail for each of the libraries on each topic, but hopefully this gets you started thinking about what you are looking for so that you can look up more on the libraries that interest you most.
I tried to really be as inclusive in the initial list as possible (from "free" to libraries exceeding $1,000) but if anyone notices one that I left out, please mention it. I didn't mention Synful Orchestra, so I'm going back to add that now.
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- KVRist
- 77 posts since 12 Sep, 2011
The sampletank expansions from sonik reality includes also some strings:
Symphonic Strings 2 has patches for al strings. Cinematic expansion also includes strings, some solo, some layered, some mixed with flutes and/or piano. Omnisynth expansion has a multipurposes GM soundbank, if you want strings, just don't bother with this one
At other hand, at esoundz you find orchestral packages into infinite player format, which runs under kontakt (player is enough). As far as I know, they are the same sounds from philharmoniks, but due to copyright issues, appears under other name. And since it runs on kontakt, you may add for examples SIPS or other scripts. Some say that even sounds better than MP, even being the same source.
Finally, at sound factory there're proteus packages in multiple formats, which includes virtuoso, which is orchestral sounds. Not very realistic, btw
Symphonic Strings 2 has patches for al strings. Cinematic expansion also includes strings, some solo, some layered, some mixed with flutes and/or piano. Omnisynth expansion has a multipurposes GM soundbank, if you want strings, just don't bother with this one
At other hand, at esoundz you find orchestral packages into infinite player format, which runs under kontakt (player is enough). As far as I know, they are the same sounds from philharmoniks, but due to copyright issues, appears under other name. And since it runs on kontakt, you may add for examples SIPS or other scripts. Some say that even sounds better than MP, even being the same source.
Finally, at sound factory there're proteus packages in multiple formats, which includes virtuoso, which is orchestral sounds. Not very realistic, btw
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Echoes in the Attic Echoes in the Attic https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=180417
- KVRAF
- 11054 posts since 12 May, 2008
Per Lichtman, excellent comparison of Solo strings library!
There is one other important thing to consider I think which you didn't touch on much, that is the real-time expression options with the midi controller. For me this is one of the most important things. So I mean the options the user has to manipulate things like the string attack, dynamics, portemento/glides, vibrato etc. Different libraries deal with this quite differently.
For example synful and Kirk Hunter use the pitch bend in clever ways to determine the speed of the glide from one note to another (ie. using ptichbend while transitioning, but then when you play the new note, it isn't pitchbent anymore). Others might use a dedicated control for legato speed. Other examples are what the effect of key velocity has on the sound when modwheel/expression controls dynamics. Things like attack speed can be very useful here. Also, how is vibrato controlled? The ideal thing would be aftertouch, which I think Synful does, I'm not sure about others. But this often a dedicated control.
Another solo string library worth checking out is Hybrid Strings by Neocymatics. It is 3 versions of a single string instrument but it's a hybrid viola/violin/cello type instrument with the range spanning all of the string ranges:
http://neocymatics.com/index.php/78-new ... id-strings
And I would definitely look out for Sample Modeling's coming string instruments in the future. Judging by t heir Brass/wind instruments, they'll probably be quite good.
I also have to say that I do quite like the LASS 2 Firsct Chairs. My only problem with those is that you can't control the vibrato. I'd love to see them improve on this because I think the LASS system of being able to put together custom sections is outstanding. You can put together a nice string quartet and play it with automatic divisi, I don't know any other library that lets you do that.
There is one other important thing to consider I think which you didn't touch on much, that is the real-time expression options with the midi controller. For me this is one of the most important things. So I mean the options the user has to manipulate things like the string attack, dynamics, portemento/glides, vibrato etc. Different libraries deal with this quite differently.
For example synful and Kirk Hunter use the pitch bend in clever ways to determine the speed of the glide from one note to another (ie. using ptichbend while transitioning, but then when you play the new note, it isn't pitchbent anymore). Others might use a dedicated control for legato speed. Other examples are what the effect of key velocity has on the sound when modwheel/expression controls dynamics. Things like attack speed can be very useful here. Also, how is vibrato controlled? The ideal thing would be aftertouch, which I think Synful does, I'm not sure about others. But this often a dedicated control.
Another solo string library worth checking out is Hybrid Strings by Neocymatics. It is 3 versions of a single string instrument but it's a hybrid viola/violin/cello type instrument with the range spanning all of the string ranges:
http://neocymatics.com/index.php/78-new ... id-strings
And I would definitely look out for Sample Modeling's coming string instruments in the future. Judging by t heir Brass/wind instruments, they'll probably be quite good.
I also have to say that I do quite like the LASS 2 Firsct Chairs. My only problem with those is that you can't control the vibrato. I'd love to see them improve on this because I think the LASS system of being able to put together custom sections is outstanding. You can put together a nice string quartet and play it with automatic divisi, I don't know any other library that lets you do that.
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- KVRian
- 1113 posts since 18 Jan, 2004 from Los Angeles, California, USA
@Echoes in the Attic
Good point about the controllers - I really should get into that more. One of the reasons I don't get into this as much is because the programs I work with tend to make controller re-mapping fairly easy and between the BC3, Behringer BCF-2000 and pedal near my keyboard, I'm usually not wanting for ways to deal with that.
The discontinued Garritan GoFriller Cello featured one of the most extensive approaches to real-time controller manipulation in a library to date. That library used the mod wheel, pitch-bend, velocity, channel aftertouch and expression pedal CC data to control a variety of parameters ranging (not in order) from vibrato rate to amount and from the type and amount of sample attack to transition type from note to note. I have the Strad. package from the same family and the timbre of the library was not as exciting to me, nor was the library easy to use if you did not want to use a lot of controller data - but there really weren't a lot of options if you wanted that level of real-time control. So I was interested in what Sample Modeling would do after that, but after all the delays and time without a concrete announcement, the competition has gotten more intense. Nonetheless, I do find a great deal of merit in the use of custom impulses in instrument design by companies like Sample Modeling and Numerical Sound.
In regards to transition speed, several of the libraries allow control of this either by switching articulations or using different velocities or through a continuous controller. VSL offers the ability to interval sampling via VI Pro while also offering dedicated portamento articulations in addition to their normal "legato" ones. Incidentally, Spitfire Audio Solo Strings and Hollywood Strings (ensembles only, not solo strings) both use velocity to control transition speed in several legato patches (with HS offering up to three distinct variations of portamento/slur/non-slur in a single patch).
The BPD ("By Popular Demand") patches in Spitfire Audio Solo Strings offer velocity control of the note transition, a crossfade controller between vibrato and non-vibrato (which they say they could not get to work to their satisfaction and offer only "by popular demand") and a controller for crossfading the dynamic while also controlling volume. In the other patches, many of these are still controllable, but not all. The patches show many of these parameters on the main instrument display so that you can simply right-click the appropriate slider and select "MIDI learn" to change them without having to dive into editing the instrument programming.
VSL offers extensive controller customization options via the optional VI Pro interface and a lesser degree of control via the included VI interface. The user can easily choose a lot of different ways to switch and control these things.
[EDIT: July 26th, 2014. As KVR user @jancivil mentions later in the thread, there is a way to boost the level by up to 6.0dB. As I indicated in my original wording (preserved in the following text) I did not know whether that ability existed and was originally unable to find it. Here's @jancivil's post that shows how it works. http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlis ... e&u=163537] It may be a minor point, but in my last look through the VI Pro interface, I did not find an easy way to boost signal level on the libraries, only to attenuate it (in contrast to both Play and Kontakt, for instance). Keep in mind, this was based on trying to find it on my own, not using a manual, so it may be there. You can see for yourself at http://www.Try-Sound.com by scheduling time to try the Vienna Special Edition libraries.
It is worth noting that typically libraries that support "aftertouch" are usually only supporting "channel aftertouch" or "channel pressure" as opposed to "polyphonic aftertouch", which would really be the most useful overall. Kontakt does allow polyphonic aftertouch as a controller but they make it very difficult to program it, compared to the simplicity of employing it in for instance certain CS-80 emulations (ME-80 and CS-80V for starters). However, this is normally a non-issue if playing a single solo string line - because you only have one bow.
The auto-divisi in LASS FC2 is a cool feature and Andrew K. was known before LASS as being a talented scripter in the Kontakt community. It was worth noting that there are several other auto-divisi scripts available for Kontakt libraries if your specific library supports it - I've used auto-divisi scripts with conversions of the old GigaStudio VSL Solo Strings, for instance. In fact the opportunity to change your libraries using scripts with Kontakt is extremely powerful if the library is unlocked to allow it - including everything from scalable ensemble sizes (I've made 5 to 7 player sections from a single articulation in VSL solo strings at times) to the aforementioned SIPS legato.
As mentioned before, the control-ability of Synful Orchestra is a key-selling point for the library (along with small hard-drive footprint and relatively modest system requirements). It also has built-in scalable ensemble sizes, etc. But the timbre of the instruments is among the least pleasing in my anecdotal experience (and I've revisited that library at least 4 times over the years). Other people may feel better about the library's tone and to them the very extensive controls offered are among the most extensive available to date (and this is one of the reasons the library uses the rather unique approach it does). It also presents a list of all the controllers that is fairly easy to edit as a large part of the user interface, so it's difficult not to notice them. Much like Garritan Gofriller Cello it is not a library that tends to produce a pleasing sound if you do not get deep into taking advantage of it but rather encourage you to get involved early on. This may make both libraries less useful to those primarily using notation software.
Now, when it comes to vibrato, there are a few others things to keep in mind.
To what extent is the transition from non-vibrato to vibrato obvious and how many degrees of vibrato are offered? Is the vibrato speed controllable and (if not) is it appropriate to your favored style(s)?
Synful Orchestra should have the most control over vibrato based on the technological approach it uses, but with Garritan Gofriller Cello they did a great job of programming using more traditional sampling in conjunction with phase-matched sampled cross-fades and convolution using instrument impulses that the vibrato control already let you vary both amount/intensity and rate in a convincing fashion that exceeds that of the other sample libraries discussed here. None of the other libraries mentioned here lived up to that degree of vibrato control, so you really need to pick one that "suits your style" because the starting point the performer gives you should be close to what you want.
Since you use LASS FC2, could you speak a bit more about how legato sampling is implemented in that library? Is it based on interval-sampling or a different approach? The tuning and timbre of that library make it less suited to my work than many of the others, so I am less educated about that area but I they might be less of an issue for others and it would be great for them to know about that area so they can decide for themselves.
Good point about the controllers - I really should get into that more. One of the reasons I don't get into this as much is because the programs I work with tend to make controller re-mapping fairly easy and between the BC3, Behringer BCF-2000 and pedal near my keyboard, I'm usually not wanting for ways to deal with that.
The discontinued Garritan GoFriller Cello featured one of the most extensive approaches to real-time controller manipulation in a library to date. That library used the mod wheel, pitch-bend, velocity, channel aftertouch and expression pedal CC data to control a variety of parameters ranging (not in order) from vibrato rate to amount and from the type and amount of sample attack to transition type from note to note. I have the Strad. package from the same family and the timbre of the library was not as exciting to me, nor was the library easy to use if you did not want to use a lot of controller data - but there really weren't a lot of options if you wanted that level of real-time control. So I was interested in what Sample Modeling would do after that, but after all the delays and time without a concrete announcement, the competition has gotten more intense. Nonetheless, I do find a great deal of merit in the use of custom impulses in instrument design by companies like Sample Modeling and Numerical Sound.
In regards to transition speed, several of the libraries allow control of this either by switching articulations or using different velocities or through a continuous controller. VSL offers the ability to interval sampling via VI Pro while also offering dedicated portamento articulations in addition to their normal "legato" ones. Incidentally, Spitfire Audio Solo Strings and Hollywood Strings (ensembles only, not solo strings) both use velocity to control transition speed in several legato patches (with HS offering up to three distinct variations of portamento/slur/non-slur in a single patch).
The BPD ("By Popular Demand") patches in Spitfire Audio Solo Strings offer velocity control of the note transition, a crossfade controller between vibrato and non-vibrato (which they say they could not get to work to their satisfaction and offer only "by popular demand") and a controller for crossfading the dynamic while also controlling volume. In the other patches, many of these are still controllable, but not all. The patches show many of these parameters on the main instrument display so that you can simply right-click the appropriate slider and select "MIDI learn" to change them without having to dive into editing the instrument programming.
VSL offers extensive controller customization options via the optional VI Pro interface and a lesser degree of control via the included VI interface. The user can easily choose a lot of different ways to switch and control these things.
[EDIT: July 26th, 2014. As KVR user @jancivil mentions later in the thread, there is a way to boost the level by up to 6.0dB. As I indicated in my original wording (preserved in the following text) I did not know whether that ability existed and was originally unable to find it. Here's @jancivil's post that shows how it works. http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlis ... e&u=163537] It may be a minor point, but in my last look through the VI Pro interface, I did not find an easy way to boost signal level on the libraries, only to attenuate it (in contrast to both Play and Kontakt, for instance). Keep in mind, this was based on trying to find it on my own, not using a manual, so it may be there. You can see for yourself at http://www.Try-Sound.com by scheduling time to try the Vienna Special Edition libraries.
It is worth noting that typically libraries that support "aftertouch" are usually only supporting "channel aftertouch" or "channel pressure" as opposed to "polyphonic aftertouch", which would really be the most useful overall. Kontakt does allow polyphonic aftertouch as a controller but they make it very difficult to program it, compared to the simplicity of employing it in for instance certain CS-80 emulations (ME-80 and CS-80V for starters). However, this is normally a non-issue if playing a single solo string line - because you only have one bow.
The auto-divisi in LASS FC2 is a cool feature and Andrew K. was known before LASS as being a talented scripter in the Kontakt community. It was worth noting that there are several other auto-divisi scripts available for Kontakt libraries if your specific library supports it - I've used auto-divisi scripts with conversions of the old GigaStudio VSL Solo Strings, for instance. In fact the opportunity to change your libraries using scripts with Kontakt is extremely powerful if the library is unlocked to allow it - including everything from scalable ensemble sizes (I've made 5 to 7 player sections from a single articulation in VSL solo strings at times) to the aforementioned SIPS legato.
As mentioned before, the control-ability of Synful Orchestra is a key-selling point for the library (along with small hard-drive footprint and relatively modest system requirements). It also has built-in scalable ensemble sizes, etc. But the timbre of the instruments is among the least pleasing in my anecdotal experience (and I've revisited that library at least 4 times over the years). Other people may feel better about the library's tone and to them the very extensive controls offered are among the most extensive available to date (and this is one of the reasons the library uses the rather unique approach it does). It also presents a list of all the controllers that is fairly easy to edit as a large part of the user interface, so it's difficult not to notice them. Much like Garritan Gofriller Cello it is not a library that tends to produce a pleasing sound if you do not get deep into taking advantage of it but rather encourage you to get involved early on. This may make both libraries less useful to those primarily using notation software.
Now, when it comes to vibrato, there are a few others things to keep in mind.
To what extent is the transition from non-vibrato to vibrato obvious and how many degrees of vibrato are offered? Is the vibrato speed controllable and (if not) is it appropriate to your favored style(s)?
Synful Orchestra should have the most control over vibrato based on the technological approach it uses, but with Garritan Gofriller Cello they did a great job of programming using more traditional sampling in conjunction with phase-matched sampled cross-fades and convolution using instrument impulses that the vibrato control already let you vary both amount/intensity and rate in a convincing fashion that exceeds that of the other sample libraries discussed here. None of the other libraries mentioned here lived up to that degree of vibrato control, so you really need to pick one that "suits your style" because the starting point the performer gives you should be close to what you want.
Since you use LASS FC2, could you speak a bit more about how legato sampling is implemented in that library? Is it based on interval-sampling or a different approach? The tuning and timbre of that library make it less suited to my work than many of the others, so I am less educated about that area but I they might be less of an issue for others and it would be great for them to know about that area so they can decide for themselves.
Last edited by Per Lichtman on Sat Jul 26, 2014 7:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Echoes in the Attic Echoes in the Attic https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=180417
- KVRAF
- 11054 posts since 12 May, 2008
LASS uses interval sampling for it's legato/portamento/glissando (I have the full LASS 2 by the way, not FC 2). Basses and Cellos don't have glissando, just legato/portamento.
The way it works is that when notes are played overlapped, it triggers either legato, portamento or glissando interval samples based on velocity played. You can customize the range at which different velocities trigger which interval samples. There is also midi control of the speed of those transitions. I think it's a pretty good system, especially for polyphonic divisi playing. The legato functionality is definitely one of the biggest strengths of LASS. It also allows polyphonic legato like Kirk Hunter, with Adjustable chord detection times. Round robin intervals sustains and all that good stuff.
I fell the same about Synful. I own it but the tone doesn't do it for me anymore. I'd love the Gofriller Cello, but it's not sold anymore so I'm waiting on Sample Modelling's next Cello.
I've got all three of the Albion series (my only other Orchestral Kontakt libraries right now besides LASS) and I do love them, so I'd be tempted by the solo strings if only they had the same mic positions for the legato patches so they were integrated with the rest of the articulations and could get the dry close mic sound.
The way it works is that when notes are played overlapped, it triggers either legato, portamento or glissando interval samples based on velocity played. You can customize the range at which different velocities trigger which interval samples. There is also midi control of the speed of those transitions. I think it's a pretty good system, especially for polyphonic divisi playing. The legato functionality is definitely one of the biggest strengths of LASS. It also allows polyphonic legato like Kirk Hunter, with Adjustable chord detection times. Round robin intervals sustains and all that good stuff.
I fell the same about Synful. I own it but the tone doesn't do it for me anymore. I'd love the Gofriller Cello, but it's not sold anymore so I'm waiting on Sample Modelling's next Cello.
I've got all three of the Albion series (my only other Orchestral Kontakt libraries right now besides LASS) and I do love them, so I'd be tempted by the solo strings if only they had the same mic positions for the legato patches so they were integrated with the rest of the articulations and could get the dry close mic sound.
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- KVRAF
- 2628 posts since 30 Mar, 2007 from In and Out Burger
nvm...
[Insert Signature Here]
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- KVRian
- 1113 posts since 18 Jan, 2004 from Los Angeles, California, USA
@spirit I remember the tone of the Garritan Strad. gave me a somewhat similar first impression but I haven't reloaded it on my newer system. Might be fun to find out if I like it better now.
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- KVRian
- 1105 posts since 31 Dec, 2006 from the hills above beautiful Boise, Idaho
I bought Spitfire solo strings and am pretty happy with the cello. I also own 8Dio's Adagio violins and probably will not be buying the cellos anytime soon due to too many issues that are yet to be resolved such as messed up legatos. The Adagio series does sound great though, and I'm confident that they will eventually fix everything, but from now on I am only spending that kind of money after several updates and many happy customer reviews. Nothing against 8Dio, though, as I am quite happy with other libs I have purchased from them.
"It is better to compose than decompose."
www.SeanDockery.com https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC6k45d ... J5eCnhNbfA
www.SeanDockery.com https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC6k45d ... J5eCnhNbfA
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- KVRAF
- 2215 posts since 27 Jan, 2011
I've heard people say that while these are excellent, they have reverb baked in -- is that true?quantum7 wrote:I bought Spitfire solo strings and am pretty happy with the cello.
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- KVRian
- 1113 posts since 18 Jan, 2004 from Los Angeles, California, USA
Spitfire Audio Solo Strings were recorded with three microphone positions at Air Lynhdhurst (which is a favorite hall of many composers, including Hans Zimmer. The closest of these is close enough to use additional reverb, etc., as you likely do with many other libraries. It is definitely not as dry as VSL.
The issue isn't with the library in general, it's specific to the legato patch for each solo string. In these patches, instead of doing the programming for each of the 3 microphone positions, they used one blended mix. That mixed position is not very dry at all - it has lots of the ambience from the hall.
You can hear examples of the standard 3 positions and the legato blend (all without additional processing) in the video walkthrough at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQZS-9mD0EA
The issue isn't with the library in general, it's specific to the legato patch for each solo string. In these patches, instead of doing the programming for each of the 3 microphone positions, they used one blended mix. That mixed position is not very dry at all - it has lots of the ambience from the hall.
You can hear examples of the standard 3 positions and the legato blend (all without additional processing) in the video walkthrough at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQZS-9mD0EA
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- KVRAF
- 2215 posts since 27 Jan, 2011
Thanks Per
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- KVRian
- 1113 posts since 18 Jan, 2004 from Los Angeles, California, USA
I'm writing a series of solo string reviews for www.SoundBytesMag.net now.
Here's the first:
Embertone Friedlander Violin
http://soundbytesmag.net/embertonefriedlanderviolin/
It's over 3,000 words with point by point comparison in regards to the Garritan Stradivari Solo Violin.
I'm also working on reviews of SimpleSamSample Signor Paganini, XSample Chamber Ensemble and Prague Solo Strings at the moment and will try to address as many solo string sample libraries as I can with great detail.
Here's the first:
Embertone Friedlander Violin
http://soundbytesmag.net/embertonefriedlanderviolin/
It's over 3,000 words with point by point comparison in regards to the Garritan Stradivari Solo Violin.
I'm also working on reviews of SimpleSamSample Signor Paganini, XSample Chamber Ensemble and Prague Solo Strings at the moment and will try to address as many solo string sample libraries as I can with great detail.
