Piano libraries are too fake (opinion)

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backsliders wrote:Also, I must note that every time I see you post, EvilDragon, due to your profile picture, I imagine Henry Rollins or Trent Reznor standing on stage screaming it at the audience, and it always makes me smile.

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Well the Ivory American Concert D sounds pretty good to me...

And the Italian Grand is not too shabby either...

Sure - the're not 100% real....

But the're pretty damn close :wink:
No auto tune...

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Not in behaviour.

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Not sure if it has been mentioned yet:

http://fluffyaudio.com/shop/mypiano/
http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=34890

You could try this piano, it is also on sale today for 39$.
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Truepianos is my fav. All the flavors (seven I think?) sound different. I also like Alicia's Keys and Soniccouture's Extended Piano (extended is amazing when you start messing with short envelopes, pitch bend and such). If I'm looking for realistic, I just put reverb on it. I used to record pianos all the time...the best recording I ever made was on a Steinway 9' Concert Grand, it wasn't perfect, but the piano was. The imperfect recording didn't matter at all.

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There really is need for good MONO piano libraries. Libraries that are made with mixing and recoring in mind. IMHO most of the time in busy mix it is much better to have mono piano than stereo and that's how it was done in most classic albums of the past too. I mean in the golden age :)

The wider the library sounds the worse it probably is when collapsed to mono. I hate that phasey and weak mono piano sound that is so common with sample libraries. Using only L or R helps but it's not enough and also then you get further left or right hand keys louder than others. One remedy that has worked for me is just to use MSED or other stereo tool and narrow the piano before panning by turning down side information, probably -6 to -12 dB.

All in all I think most of the sampled instruments would work better in the mix with good mono samples. Sadly, they lack the flash when soloed...

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Yes, I think you make a very valid point, didn't intend to sound contrary.
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gavriloP wrote:There really is need for good MONO piano libraries. Libraries that are made with mixing and recoring in mind. IMHO most of the time in busy mix it is much better to have mono piano than stereo and that's how it was done in most classic albums of the past too. I mean in the golden age :)

The wider the library sounds the worse it probably is when collapsed to mono. I hate that phasey and weak mono piano sound that is so common with sample libraries. Using only L or R helps but it's not enough and also then you get further left or right hand keys louder than others. One remedy that has worked for me is just to use MSED or other stereo tool and narrow the piano before panning by turning down side information, probably -6 to -12 dB.

All in all I think most of the sampled instruments would work better in the mix with good mono samples. Sadly, they lack the flash when soloed...
+1! As I mentioned earlier, I'm still looking for one. None of the libraries I've tried fit the bill you eloquently outline.
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Agreed. Piano sample libraries sound lush and nice, but nothing at all like what you hear in older records.

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A couple of points on this:

1. Most sampled piano libraries are of grand pianos and geared towards classical music. Just look at the demo songs for sampled pianos. They're overwhelmingly classical pieces. And the libraries usually sound quite good in this context.

2. Rock, blues, and jazz pianos are much harder to come by. However, the other thing to keep in mind, is what is a good piano sound in this category? Just look at The Beatles as on example, there's a huge difference in sound between the Lady Madonna, Martha My Dear, and Let it Be piano sounds. Each would sound terribly dull in a solo piano context, but work very well with Paul's voice above them, and the rest of the band/arrangement. Then there's the Imagine piano sound, which is an iconic piano song, but murky and undefined. On the other end of the spectrum you get the Elton John piano sound, which is nothing like how The Beatles sounded. And we haven't even left the early 70's yet.

My point? There's so many different ways to mic a piano, and so many different pianos, that what might sound good for one song would be terrible for another, which is probably NOT something you'd want in a sample library. 1) You'd be limiting your sales, and 2) everyone who bought the library would need to by other libraries for other songs. This is part of the reason why "clean" is so popular. It's easy to dirty up a piano library to fit a mix (TB Reelbus with some wow and flutter can vintage up a piano real fast), but you can never make the Lady Madonna piano sound like an Elton John piano, or an Alicia Keys piano.

3. A lot of your favorite piano sounds might be uprights, so don't expect that sound from grand piano libraries (or baby grands, or 20 foot long upright pianos built into walls, etc.).

4. If these piano libraries sound bad when collapsed to mono, I'd ask, how are you collapsing things to mono? Are you just hitting the mono/stereo interleave button on your DAW? Have you tried loading an M/S plugin and reducing the volume of the side channel? This approach will yield much higher phase coherency.

5. I have the Ivory uprights, they're very-well sampled and sound ok. They have a great feature set, cover a wide array of sounds, and can be made to work in a mix with some work. I also have Addictive Keys, the mic'ing options make it extremely versatile (god I wish everyone did this), though it's not quite as comprehensively sampled as Ivory IMO. My favorite uprights in a mix though are probably the old Vintaudio uprights. Their Stienway Boston upright, and Clinton 1908 uprights sound fantastic and can cover rock, jazz, or blues very well. The only downside is they're entirely lacking in modern library features (scripting, pedal noise, etc.). In fact, their Yamaha C7 is also great for these genres too and this one offers 3 mic positions. If you can find those libraries, check them out. God, I wish whoever owns the rights to those samples would go in and hire someone to script for them.

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I find 'Classical demos' to be mainly 'allegro con vivace' allowing the sound to never rest long enough to let you hear the full sample. The same pianos used in blues, etc. expose the samples in letting the cycle play through where we can hear the deficiency. More importantly, the velocity ranges seem to pick music that purposely show off what they want to show off while diverting you from the full expression you really want out of it, regardless of genre and style. Most of them sound really good in the demos, but then prove to be weak once I install it.

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BBFG# wrote:I find 'Classical demos' to be mainly 'allegro con vivace' allowing the sound to never rest long enough to let you hear the full sample. The same pianos used in blues, etc. expose the samples in letting the cycle play through where we can hear the deficiency. More importantly, the velocity ranges seem to pick music that purposely show off what they want to show off while diverting you from the full expression you really want out of it, regardless of genre and style. Most of them sound really good in the demos, but then prove to be weak once I install it.
Don't take offense to this, because I don't mean any, but the other thing I'd ask is, "how good a player are you?" On a ten point scale I'd rate myself a 2.5, maybe a 3 on piano (e.g. my piano skills max out at being able to play things like Beatles songs), and could probably make a great a library sound bad. If someone with some kills came over and did some awesome blues runs on something like the Vintaudio Stienway upright, I would probably be floored at how good it sounds without any features like scripting or pedal noise.

So I don't blame the demos being stacked to sound good, I instead tend to blame myself for not having the technical ability to get the most out of those sample libraries. By that same token, I'm a much more accomplished guitar player, and I find that makes me super picky with amp sims, finding areas where I think they just fall completely flat. You could be at that level with piano, and hearing problems with libraries that I'm just not.

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Fair question.
Been playing 48 years now, (electrics/electronics for 43 years). Youngest of a family where everyone played (mostly for churches). Was raised playing classical, jazz, & pop. Further training in marching and theater musical arts. I've played a few instruments over the years, but piano is my beginning and foundation. I wouldn't rate myself high because I'm sure I could be better. But others put me in the Mahvishnu Hammer stylings with 'classical motif' tendancies and Brubeck/Ellis time signatures. Rate as you will, I can make any of these sound good enough for what they do, but again, they each come up lacking in what I do in range of expressions. A few of them are adequate, especially in the mid to hard velocities, but the 'holes' I find in the softer velocities I find frustrating and attrocious. There are definitely better players than I, and I'm sure many are doing the demos for them. But they're playing what they're contracted to do.

My classical leanings are toward Beethoven, who tried to make the louds louder and the softs softer, but also some of the usual suspects in Russian & French composers along with the 'fathers' of English & American music. What I play is Beethoven and Mussorgsky. My jazz leanings are Brubeck and the fusion of the seventies. And what I play is Brubeck with Hammer/Corea type leads. And my 'pop' is geared more toward the World venue these days.
(e.g. Lenine, Antiquarks, Mohapatra, Gabriel)

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I only use Piano in Blue nowadays. Stunning playability and character.

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Cimbasso wrote:I only use Piano in Blue nowadays. Stunning playability and character.

I will definitely check that one out.

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