Piano libraries are too fake (opinion)

[BBFG#]

Thank you for noticing that and pointing it out. There's always a "gotcha", isn't there?

FA-08 88... no aftertouch.

Most of the ones that get suggested lack aftertouch. And if the company doesn't mention it, it doesn't have it. I know some people don't want or need it anyway. But the companies shouldn't call anything a controller unless they have it.

Korg just announced their Taktile and Taktile Triton. good looking boards with NO aftertouch...

[SirKen]

Thank you for noticing that and pointing it out. There's always a "gotcha", isn't there?

FA-08 88... no aftertouch.

Most of the ones that get suggested lack aftertouch. And if the company doesn't mention it, it doesn't have it. I know some people don't want or need it anyway. But the companies shouldn't call anything a controller unless they have it.

Korg just announced their Taktile and Taktile Triton. good looking boards with NO aftertouch...

Figures!

Did anything similar to Akai MPK88 come out recently?

[BBFG#]

Akai is showing smaller boards (25/49/61) in some form of updated version and also the update minikey models online, saw a pictorial at Music Radar at least but the information is minimal.
Haven't seen an 88 yet and hoping they addressed the wide spread complaints, especially about pad sensitivity, And my pet peeve that no on else really cares about, rubberized pitch/mod wheels.

[tapper mike]

Thank you for noticing that and pointing it out. There's always a "gotcha", isn't there?

FA-08 88... no aftertouch.

Most of the ones that get suggested lack aftertouch. And if the company doesn't mention it, it doesn't have it. I know some people don't want or need it anyway. But the companies shouldn't call anything a controller unless they have it.

Korg just announced their Taktile and Taktile Triton. good looking boards with NO aftertouch...[/quote}


Well, we are in disagreement on the whole what is a controller thing. But I do agree that that Korg calling a keyboard Taktile and not having aftertouch is a bit of a misnomer if not an outright lie.

I have a rather famous guitar that has been copied to no end by plug in vendors. No matter what I try I cannot begin to acheive the same response from the guitar that is exibited in the virtual instruments that flood the market. This is not as much a reflection of the mic'ing as it is in the technique.

I'm sure if you went to a traditional piano and studied something as simple as key wieght from two piano's side by side they would not be as aligned acrossed the keys in the same manner. As well there is the pencil principle. Heavyier people use less force on a pencil to get the graphite on to paper then lighter people. It's not a one size matches all character thing.

Re Alicia's Keys
How real world is a C3Neo They only ever built three and it's not like you are going to have an army of 2nd's mic'ing every possible instance of it.

Re Collapsing to mono.
When you collapse a stereo instrument to mono there is always some phase cancellation going on. Use a phase inverter on one of the channels as you blend them and / or use a slight time offset between the left and right channels while you mix down to mono and you'll have a fuller sound.

[SirKen]

Akai is showing smaller boards (25/49/61) in some form of updated version and also the update minikey models online, saw a pictorial at Music Radar at least but the information is minimal.
Haven't seen an 88 yet and hoping they addressed the wide spread complaints, especially about pad sensitivity, And my pet peeve that no on else really cares about, rubberized pitch/mod wheels.

While it is not an official fix, pad sensitivity can be solved by the third party pads from mpcstuff. I got the extra thick ones and they work great. They are a bit hard though.

You know what else would be a cool addition to the new set of controllers? A touchpad or a joystick while still keeping the pitch/mod wheels. Most of the synth VSTs I own have some XY pad style interfaces, so it would be great to just have that built in the controllers. I have been using controller apps on my iPad and the touchpad from the Korg nanopad to make up for it.

[tapper mike]

You know what else would be a cool addition to the new set of controllers? A touchpad or a joystick while still keeping the pitch/mod wheels. Most of the synth VSTs I own have some XY pad style interfaces, so it would be great to just have that built in the controllers. I have been using controller apps on my iPad and the touchpad from the Korg nanopad to make up for it.

I have actually had conversations with Harvey Starr about X,Y and X,Y,Z touchpad surfaces on ztars and zboards. He has been working on just such a thing but the upfront marketing is all about "The Clipper" As Beyonce is introducing it to her touring ensemble

[johnlewisgrant]

Subject near and dear to my heart: no piano library that works FOR ME.

"FOR ME" is the crucial point. Everybody has different objectives with piano libraries.

All I want is sampled Steinway that sounds "as a top notch piano recording would sound."

"As a top notch piano recording would sound" NOT EASY TO DEFINE!!!

Recording engineers have VERY different approaches determined by (but not limited to): Mic type/manufacturer, mic position, room size and damping, pianist's style of playing, music being played., etc., etc., etc....

On top of these hurdles to the "right" sample, we have the big problem of "ear accommodation". If you play or just listen to a certain piano, or piano sample, long enough--and if you like it somewhat to begin with--it "grows" on you... you get used to the sound.

That's not a good thing if your purpose is simply to use the sample to make a great, real-sounding solo piano recording. Crap can get by your unsuspecting ears.

Having said that, only 3 samples that I've used over the years comes even marginally close to making a "real" or "competitive" recorded, solo, piano sound: "Black Grand Ambient", "PMI Wet Bos" and Ivory "American Grand", with ALL the artificial stuff removed from the sample: ie, release samples, damper pedal noise, etc, "timbre" turned up to "99" and "dynamic range" all the way up to 60 db. Even with all these tweeks, the American Grand still lacks the upper end, and no amount of equalization will bring it back. "Imperfect Faz" get the upper end in, but the sketchy tuning of the instrument, and the totally real damper and other various piano noises, means you get a very "I did it myself" or "homemade" piano sound. The "PMI Bos" is totally "present" sounding, and a nicely tuned piano. But only 3 layers? You can definitely hear that. And three-only layers makes it REALLY hard to use for many types of material.

So those are MY pet-peeves, but they are only problems given my specific preferences and needs, which are not normal ones (classical piano sound and "as it would sound on a high end classical piano recording" (ie distant mic/ reverberant chamber or hall).

My 2 cents.

JG

[BBFG#]

I tend to be more partial to the Modeled pianos over the sampled ones. Sample ones are good for short bursts to give the effect of a piano in the mix, processed, abused or simple clean attacks. but the modeled ones give me closer to what I expect from them as an instrument with full pianoforte playability. They all seem to have a 'dead spot' in velocity and/or dynamics for me though. Where they end up being 80-95% true enough. The sampled ones though, give me a much smaller percentage. After getting some suggestions from Evil Dragon on manipulating the sounds more, I'm starting to like the XLN pianos more (mainly I just have to turn the dial to a harder sound). Although the Mark One Electric is not near to close enough for playbility to me, the Electric Grand and the two pianos are nice enough once I suit them close to my tastes.
I've had the Pianoteq Stage demo and again, once I play with the various mic'ing and curves, find I like it well enough too. Considering I use my Kronos or Motif for pianos mostly, they are very good as a back-up to those or to free them up in certain uses. Pianoteq, I can't quite justify the price of right now though. But I do find them adequate in most regards now. And the XLN has become my ITB go-to-piano. (For Electric Piano, though, Lounge Lizard seems to be better).

[johnlewisgrant]

Modeled pianos have near zero latency, and so are great for playability.

Believe it or not, I'm personally not looking for playability, although its obviously the most important thing for a lot of applications and for a lot if not most users.

I'm in the minority…..

I'm just looking for a sample that will sound INDISTINGUISHABLE from the real thing when we hear it through loudspeakers. The RECORDED result, inotherwords, is all I'm interested in. The sample might be rotten to play …. but sound great rendered via any decent solo piano midi source.

I want to be able to take a good/excellent solo piano midi file, render it via a top-notch piano sample, and hear an end-result through loudspeakers that you can't tell from a top notch modern piano recording, whether Jazz, Classical, Rock, etc.

That doesn't exist…. yet….

As I say, the top contender, after ten years of listening, is still the "wet" sample from the PMI Bos (Post sample). A reallllly old BOS sample with only 3 layers.

What's "real" about it? Where REAL means "sounds just like a solo piano recording"????

Answer… the "room" or "hall" is part of the "wet" sample AND there is little or no messing (processing) with the recorded sample. The result is uncanny in it's realism because, in fact, a whole bunch of recorded solo piano material IS recorded with the mics about 4-8 feet from the open lid in a concert hall situation. The "hall" is as much part of the recorded sound as the piano, itself.

(Granted, some listeners HATE the kind of recording. They like the mics over the strings, and sometimes right over the hammers. But I don't like that kind of sound…. personal preference thing.)

The American Ivory is "2nd" place, for me personally, because it lacks a realistic "wet" sound. It's very realistic, but no natural ambience. And it's 2nd because the sound is definitely processed. The high end is conspicously absent… smothered in processing.

[kpr]

John,

I already posted this here in this thread:

http://youtu.be/VlExslM-LW4

It is not close miked, but room miked with the result of a real stereo panorama the audience gets and includes the real room ambience.

Check the complete "making of ..." The Konzertflügel here: http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... 5#p5623276

[the professor]

I hate replying here cos it's going to bump my own product announcement in the forum, but... for a really good combination of weighted keyboard action feel and the grungy non-Steinway-Grand qualities that the OP was asking about, what think you guys to the Nord Stage 2 or similar?

Nord's sample library includes some upright pianos and parlour pianos that deliver just the right amount of crusty vibe for me. I grew up on perfectly-tuned and impeccably-maintained Steinways and Bosendorfers (I was a rock'n'roll kid cruelly stuck in a classically trained body, complete with trouser creases). You can't get a good blues grind out of those things I bought the Stage 2 really for its user sample facility, but immediately got hooked on the pianos; ditched the factory-installed Bosendorfers, Steinways and Yamahas and filled it up with uprights. It sounds fantastic in a mix. If you're being hyper-picky, their multisample splits and velocity layers aren't always transparent, but in a mix you'll never notice.

Now go to the next post down and buy my products, damn you

[Aroused by JarJar]

I hate to be the guy spamming an interesting thread with products , but I totally agree with you about the over pristine-ness of most piano libraries.

That's why my Sound-Dust sample libraries are made with a bit of soul in them...

You should have a listen to Ships Piano, its a kind of semi-ancient pocket piano , as favoured by Scott of the Antarctic, and is sampled to sound like it really sounds , warts and all, rather than an over polished artifact.

http://sound-dust.co.uk

Coincidentally i'm just working on a slightly updated MK2 version of it at the moment, which will of course be a free update.

cheers
Pendle

In my opinion those sound fantastic, great job!

Especially for the 19th-Century pianos it would be nice if they'd take .tun files to tune them in different ways.

[arkmabat]

"I'm okay with fake, just as long as I can reach the keys:"

[bbhare]

Quietest notes fade to nothing!!!!
why do some piano sample libraries have this unnatural loudness gradient applied to the lowest velocity values.

It is true to say choice of piano is a very personal thing, for any musician I think choosing your instrument is a matter of personal taste, there is no perfect guitar, flute, cello etc to suit all tastes. When it comes to digital sample libraries though there are some parameters other than tone which can ruin the authintic feel of a piano.

'Perceived loudness' across the frequency range appears to be a tricky subject. A piano played quietly has a very different tone to loud notes, this is why we have multilayer sampling. Clearly there must be some kind of loudness gradient applied between the steps in order to smooth the transition between one velocity level and the next, but why fade quietest notes to nothing? I find such pianos unplayable.

[jancivil]

I found pretty much every time that there were gaps in the velocity layers. I have yet to spend big towards a piano lib, tho.

This is another instance of playing instruments vs creating virtual music, I can't play the piano for shit, so...

I like a lot of sound, and I like big stereo.

here's some good fakery then

https://youtu.be/yAQ7BC4FPHA