KVR Audio

Norrin_Radd · Post by **Norrin_Radd** » Thu Dec 12, 2013 8:37 pm

I keep getting suckered in to buying orchestral libraries in the hopes that they will allow me to write the type of orchestral music I want. But very rarely do they offer me options where the attack speed is fast enough to keep tempo with the type of songs I want to write.

This is my reference: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LiPMY8UI ... 452947411B

Does anyone know of a sample library that specifically caters to this format of high speed "action" orchestral music? Especially when it comes to Brass and Woodwinds (listen to the flutes in this song!!!). Brass and Woodwind attacks are never this fast in sample libraries. Not even close.

Help me, KVR!

Sendy · Post by **Sendy** » Thu Dec 12, 2013 8:55 pm

It's a long shot but you could try moving the startpoint of the samples further in and then applying a quick envelope to smooth it out. That can work wonders on some samples, but I'm not sure how easy that'd be with a big multisampled orchestra.

Norrin_Radd · Post by **Norrin_Radd** » Thu Dec 12, 2013 9:04 pm

If there are no clear options, I would totally be down to give that a try. Sometimes you just have to DIY

DSmolken · Post by **DSmolken** » Thu Dec 12, 2013 9:15 pm

Sendy wrote:It's a long shot but you could try moving the startpoint of the samples further in and then applying a quick envelope to smooth it out. That can work wonders on some samples, but I'm not sure how easy that'd be with a big multisampled orchestra.

Yeah, I've been messing with doing that with my own arco bass samples. You do pay a price in realism, so don't overdo it. Not sure how many sample libraries will let you control that, but with some samplers you might just have to move a couple of knobs. If it's mapped in SFZ you can use an opcode to start at an offset instead of starting with the first sample of the wav file.

Nielzie · Post by **Nielzie** » Thu Dec 12, 2013 9:33 pm

Sendy wrote:It's a long shot but you could try moving the startpoint of the samples further in and then applying a quick envelope to smooth it out. That can work wonders on some samples, but I'm not sure how easy that'd be with a big multisampled orchestra.

Yup, I've been using that method too. Worked for me

Norrin_Radd · Post by **Norrin_Radd** » Fri Dec 13, 2013 4:16 am

Wow... It's weird that so many people have resorted to this kind of stuff. For how prominent action music is in movies and games, it's kind of crazy that orchestral libraries do not support it. I was listening to the Total Recall soundtrack today, and even it was loaded with ultra fast attacks.

I have some Kontakt one off libraries, but nothing really orchestrally encompassing. Most of my orchestral stuff is in East West format, which I don't think I can edit in this manner.

However, could I toss a transient shaper on the instruments for a simulated faster attack? Or is my logic there all kinds of wrong...

updog · Post by **updog** » Fri Dec 13, 2013 4:31 am

You mentioned that the attack speed is not even close to what can be heard in that piece, and that you hear these types of articulation often in soundtrack music. Maybe you're simply referring to staccato articulations? Your East West libraries do feature those.

Or is the problem that even those aren't fast enough? Could be that I'm just missing something here, I've never had this problem to the extent I would actually have to go and edit samples...

Norrin_Radd · Post by **Norrin_Radd** » Fri Dec 13, 2013 5:07 am

Nope, you're not missing anything.

In the EWQLSO library, the staccato articulations are fairly good. But compared to actual movie soundtracks, or something like that Total Annihilation song I posted, the attack speeds of the EW libraries do not match the tempos of a good heart pounding action sequence or chase.

They really just seem to lack that manic feel. A lot of times I load up the staccato articulations, the songs I write have to come out much slower than I have planned going in. I really want something that is almost as fast as electronic music. Really virtuoso playing with razor sharp attacks. I know that players can perform like this, you just don't see it in any libraries.

Does anyone have Symphobia? Does it have these types of attacks? How about the 8Dio Clair libraries?

DSmolken · Post by **DSmolken** » Fri Dec 13, 2013 8:07 am

Norrin_Radd wrote:I know that players can perform like this, you just don't see it in any libraries.

As a double bassist, I'm tempted to say "no we can't", haha.

But if you have a spiccato articulation, that will probably have the fastest attack of all the strings in the library. You could try layering that over sustained or staccato samples. Don't let the bow keep bouncing, just have a single short spiccato note acting as an extra attack sample, then quickly fade it out. Don't make it too loud, have a very quick attack (maybe 0), short decay, 0 sustain, so you get a little spiccato bite at the start of every note. No idea how realistic that would sound, but it might also be worth a try.

Export one note like that to audio, chop off a fraction of a second at the start, throw it into Harmor to resynthesize, crank up the unison, and you could have a really great "manic attack strings" synth patch, too.

Norrin_Radd · Post by **Norrin_Radd** » Fri Dec 13, 2013 8:34 am

That's a good suggestion!

I'll give that a try!

idfpower · Post by **idfpower** » Fri Dec 13, 2013 10:19 am

Have a look at Project Sam's "Orchestral Essentials" - soundscore ready

From what I've heard/tested so far, I think it's the closest to what you are looking for. But it's (very) expensive.

Arglebargle · Post by **Arglebargle** » Fri Dec 13, 2013 2:56 pm

Just use negative delay. That's the key, not finding some super fast attack strings, which probably wouldn't sound realistic. Orchestral instruments by their nature don't have instantaneous attacks. Some DAWs have negative delay built into MIDI tracks, otherwise you can find a plugin that does it. That way you can get the timing tight for whatever instruments you currently have. If you think about it, real players don't wait till the beat itself to react, they anticipate.

dsan@mail.com · Post by **dsan@mail.com** » Fri Dec 13, 2013 5:59 pm

Similarly to what Arglebargle suggests, you may want to consider moving the note in the time line so it starts a little earlier and gives you that full attack at the moment you need it. Along with moving the note create volume automation to bring up the volume at the point you need it to be most prominent.

There are all kinds of tricks when using MIDI you can perform without buying more of the same. Once bounced you can tweak it further too if necessary.

I agree - "....real players....anticipate."

Happy Musiking!
dsan

Ultra fast attack orchestral samples - Does such a thing exist?