KVR Audio

bigcat1969 · Post by **bigcat1969** » Sun Feb 02, 2014 4:23 am

Alright here is the P layer. Though 13 notes short of being fully sampled, it seems to work fairly well. At some future point I'll try to acquire more notes.
I'm not sure of how to layer them exactly. I went with
P = 1-47
MF - 48-79
F = 80-111
FF-112-127
Any suggestions in this area or others are appreciated.
I'm going to try to create solid release samples for every note next. It will be interesting to see how that goes.

hueynym · Post by **hueynym** » Sun Feb 02, 2014 11:21 am

Here's what the Logic Pro 9 Manual has to say on the subject (not that this is anything more than another opinion:
"There are eight velocity values—represented by the traditional volume indicators ppp, pp, p, mp, mf, f, ff, and fff. These correspond to MIDI velocity values 16, 32, 48, 64, 80, 96, 112, and 127, respectively."

So, at least according to them, you've pretty much got it.

I did find something in the MAX 5 manual about the velocity envelope equations, but that required maths WAY above my comprehension. (They used FRACTIONS)

pljones · Post by **pljones** » Sun Feb 02, 2014 1:07 pm

the Logic Pro 9 Manual wrote:There are eight velocity values—represented by the traditional volume indicators ppp, pp, p, mp, mf, f, ff, and fff. These correspond to MIDI velocity values 16, 32, 48, 64, 80, 96, 112, and 127, respectively.

Velocity in MIDI doesn't really correspond to volume unless you want it to, of course. How you want it to, then, is entirely up to you as a sound designer. And then, in an ideal world, you'd provide your users with a velocity to volume curve editor... It's something I've seen rarely and it's still nigh on impossible to make one that's actually usable. SFZ also defines a default curve (although this can differ per player, it shouldn't really as it is part of the spec - i.e. I get picky if someone decides to implement it differently from what René said), mapping from velocity to volume reduction in decibels and lets the sound designer adjust this as needed.

(SFZ notes on velocity tracking and amplifier gain.)

The point being, if you're not starting with normalised samples (and you really should not normalise, IMO), you need to allow for the actual volume of the sample when working out how to map it and then tell the sampler what amount of volume reduction you want across its mapped velocity range. You don't want to end up taking a ppp sample and have the sampler reduce its volume by 48dB...

Funkybot's Evil Twin · Sun Feb 02, 2014 7:49 pm

bigcat1969 wrote:Alright here is the P layer. Though 13 notes short of being fully sampled, it seems to work fairly well. At some future point I'll try to acquire more notes.
I'm not sure of how to layer them exactly. I went with
P = 1-47
MF - 48-79
F = 80-111
FF-112-127
Any suggestions in this area or others are appreciated.
I'm going to try to create solid release samples for every note next. It will be interesting to see how that goes.

What I suggest doing is writing up a list of all the missing samples/layers, then going back in and rerecording just those. You'll find it's a lot easier on the next go-round, when you can just focus on getting good versions of those notes/layers only.

Also, now that you went in and added the P layer, I had to rename a bunch of samples in the MF layer to make sure Kontakt's auto-mapping features still work (so instead of C3-1-96 it had to be renamed to C3-49-96 because C3-1-48 now exists). Having done that, I then just did a quick auto-map and created a new Kontakt 3 version.

This includes the new K3 version with all 4 layers, and the raw samples which include the renamed MF layer. You may want to just take the MF samples out of here and use these newly named versions. Here's the link:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/j668mtwh18j4p ... apping.zip

bigcat1969 · Post by **bigcat1969** » Sun Feb 02, 2014 10:22 pm

Thanks guys good advice all the way around. After the Super Bowl I'll sort it all out. For now we shall see if the Broncos make my day or break my heart. Odd to be so attached to mercenary gladiators making more money than I will ever see but there you have it.
Uploaded the Kontakt 3 version.

bigcat1969 · Post by **bigcat1969** » Mon Feb 03, 2014 6:52 pm

Well we got crushed in the Super Bowl and I'm having problems getting bursts of static and then no audio when using the City Piano is Studio One. Ain't been a good weekend! Is anyone else having problems with the piano giving a static burst and then no audio? And does anyone have any idea what it could be?

Funkybot's Evil Twin · Mon Feb 03, 2014 9:06 pm

Are you using the K5 version? Does it happen with other K5 libraries? Which .nki does it happen with? Try the K3 version, does it happen there? My blind guess is that it may have something to do with scripting if one of those versions. My K3 mapping is super simple, so that one might let you know if it has something to do with the samples themselves or even Kontakt.

bigcat1969 · Post by **bigcat1969** » Tue Feb 04, 2014 1:47 am

Thanks for that. I think the problem was in the version with the purdy picture and the twiddly knobs having the Ultra TKT script second. It seems to work only as the first script. The base version on this thread doesn't have this script, so I think it should be fine. Sorry about false alarm there. I re-uploaded the purdy version so hopefully that fixes everything. Serves me right for wanting twiddly knobs...

hueynym · Post by **hueynym** » Tue Feb 04, 2014 12:01 pm

Knobs are ALWAYS best. Doesn't matter where. Also, I hate rendering video. It ties up so many cycles on this machine, I can't do anything else. I had to go almost 12 hours with checking KVR. Felt like a junkie...

bigcat1969 · Post by **bigcat1969** » Tue Feb 04, 2014 3:00 pm

I must admit I'm liking knobs more and more, eventually I'll likely go back an put my little interface on my past attempts at instruments. I hear you on video rendering. I did a bit of machinima back in the day and man three minutes of video toook forever to prepare.
Could you guys test this idea for a piano? I'm trying to get more resonance by having notes an octave up and two octaves up play quite softly behind the struck note. I'm not sure if its working or not or can even be heard.
http://www.mediafire.com/download/j3s8k ... hifted.nki

LAGinz · Post by **LAGinz** » Wed Feb 05, 2014 12:29 am

Kinda confused here. Have been trying to keep all versions except the ones specifically superceded. Is it the 4 layer version I should be replacing, based on the static issue?

bigcat1969 · Post by **bigcat1969** » Wed Feb 05, 2014 1:19 am

Sorry about all the confusion. Presuming you are using Kontakt 5, the very first link in the first post is the current version and I believe functions correctly with no issues. If you downloaded that at any point you are fine. This is the base piano.

The static was my own fault in trying to add the Ultra TKT script to my personal version. This script was never in the version found here. I didn't realize this at the time and was worried that it had something to do with adding the P layer. The Joe's City Piano and The Whisper which are basically City Piano variants were the ones I messed up. These are now functioning correctly. Here are correctly working versions of all the variant pianos if you are collecting those as well.
Joe's City Piano, the City Piano with an interface.
The Whisper, based on City Piano's softest layers.
Shoot the Piano, a saloon piano based on the City Piano's hardest layer detuned.

LAGinz · Post by **LAGinz** » Wed Feb 05, 2014 1:24 am

Thanks for the clarification

hueynym · Post by **hueynym** » Wed Feb 05, 2014 12:28 pm

Not that I'm obsessing or anything - but...

I downloaded
ShootThePiano.nki (monolith)
TheWhisper.nki (monolith)
CityPianoJoesVersion.nki (monolith) &
CityPianoShifted.nki (monolith)

Then I re-saved each of them into Patch+Samples, non-compressed
As they are all using some subset of the CityPiano samples, I created a single Samples folder, copied the Wallpaper .pngs of each instrument to the Samples Wallpaper folder and copied the IR Samples folder as well.

With the exception of G#7-111-127.wav, which was NOT in the City Piano Samples folder (and B7-111-127.wav - which WAS in the folder but had to be manually added for one of the instruments to load for some reason) - everything went quite smoothly, and I was able to save ONE GIGABYTE of space from duplicated samples.

I'm amazed at the amount of work these take. It seems there are so many picky details that one doesn't think of immediately (like not naming the "knobby" script ANYTHING so it doesn't just appear as "edited" - hint, hint) While on the subject of scripting, it might also be a good idea to put comments in them, either your sources from those copied from others or your name for those of us who steal, um, BORROW, from you... again, these are all just my own observations...

Also, not that I'm in any immediate position to do so, but if anyone else is working on a AU/VST version of these, please let me know so I can focus on other projects instead.

Once again, Joe, thanks for all your work... (and let me know if anyone wants the amended nki files. It didn't take long to do it myself, but I don't really know where/how to upload them)

bigcat1969 · Post by **bigcat1969** » Wed Feb 05, 2014 1:41 pm

Can you upload the scripts to http://www.kvraudio.com/banks.php?s=lis ... order=date ?

Are the samples the same as those in the Kontakt 3 version, http://www.mediafire.com/download/nvxmw ... cities.zip ?

It would be good to have a consolidated version of all those experimental pianos. Once I get off my butt and do the release samples and try to get the samples for the missing/not sure about FF and PP samples, it would be good to create a somewhat finished Version 1 so that nkis could be simply uploaded as files of a couple k rather than couple hundred megs.

I have crummy ears, I think the B7 is really A#7 or at any rate they are the same note so when I added C8 I dropped B7. I was planning on resampling the FF layers's G7, G#7, A7, A#7 and B7 and inserting them without telling anyone. I hate that last half octave, my tuner cant tell me what notes they are.

Can you hear the Shifted Version as being different than the regular version? Does it add any fullness to the sound or just make it muffled?

I feel a bit guilty about that script. I've long forgotten where I got most of the bits from. As you dive into what I've done you will notice the simple fact that I have no real clue what I'm doing. Well based on some conversations in this thread and others you can probably guess that. It's a tribute to both the robustness of Kontakt 5 and its community that a newbie can create an instrument of some complexity on it. On the community note, thanks to Evil Dragon for answering so many questions across the last few months. Its like being able to ask Einstein to help with your algebra.

Free City Piano - Final Version, 4 Velocities + Release