Lately there have been several cases of buyers paying Market Place forum participants for goods, but never receiving what they bought and not being able to contact the "sellers." Unless there's a legitimate excuse, this is not just unacceptable behavior for a seller, it is a crime in just about any jurisdiction.
Short of closing down Market Place, KVR can't keep buyers from being scammed. But we members can work together to support each other, to raise awareness of the potential for fraudulent sales, to provide information to help tip the balance in favor of honest buyers.
In this thread I will collect advice on how to avoid getting ripped off. While it can't help those who have already lost their money (I'm working on that by other means), it may serve to help avoid future tragedies.
I'm going to keep this thread locked because such threads usually get so overwhelmed with comments and off-topic posts that they become unreadable. I'll be glad to consider advice from KVR members for inclusion in the list though. Just PM or Email me.
Here's the first installment, with info pertinent to recent events.
_____________________________________________
Know the seller!
A seller who is a regular KVR member is a known quantity, someone you've had a chance to observe for months or years, someone whose behavior is on record. This is far from foolproof; as Willy Wigglestick wrote in Hamlet, "one may smile, and smile, and be a villain." But in combination with other precautions, sticking with people you know pretty well can help keep you out of the Danger Zone.
Before sending your hard-earned cash to someone you've not met, at least get to know his or her online presence. Not already on familiar terms? Access the user's KVR profile and read back over past posts. Is this someone who seems involved in the community? Or someone racking up a post count quickly?
Check the KVR Market Place's Feedback Thread to see whether the seller has made other transactions, and how they ended up:
http://www.google.com/search?q=kvraudio ... vrNickname
(Replace SellersKvrNickname with the actual account name of the seller you're searching the Feedback Thread for.)
Choose a payment option wisely!
If you use Paypal's usual payment method you have some protection against fraudulent sellers.
But if you use Paypal's "gift" option for any transaction that is not actually a gift, you are voluntarily giving up any protection Paypal might have provided. You're also entering into a legal agreement stating that the money is not being provided in payment for goods or services. If that's not true, then you are scamming Paypal. You might be turning a "gift" (nudge, wink) into an actual GIFT -- meaning the seller might say you're not legally entitled to receive anything in return. The money was a gift, after all. You said so in a legal agreement when you sent it.
Don't use Paypal "gifts" unless you're really making a gift.
Western Union is another payment method to avoid. Anyone can go into a Western Union office and pick up a payment without providing any legal identification. All they need is the transaction ID number. Needless to say, it's a favorite of scammers.
Don't pay via Western Union unless you know and trust your seller.
Does the would-be seller insist on using one of these methods, rather than ones that provide you some protection? Explain to him or her exactly why you can't agree to those terms. Be polite but firm. The seller might not have realized it's a bad idea, and you can agree on a legitimate payment method that doesn't leave you completely unprotected.
If the seller is inflexible even after the explanation I'd consider that highly suspicious, would forget about buying from that seller, and I might (as a warning to others) post in the sales thread saying why I wouldn't buy given those terms. Again, I'd be courteous but frank about it.
Be alert to the possibility of identity fraud!
If someone claims to have great feedback at another forum, on eBay, or wherever, it might be proof that they're honest, legitimate sellers. Or it could be that they've simply appropriated the name of an honest, legitimate seller -- identity theft.
How to tell? Visit the places the seller mentioned having good feedback. Send the person at those places a link to the Market Place forum sales thread you're interested in. Ask that person to verify that he or she is the same one selling the goods on KVR.
Check to see if email addresses are the same, and if not, ask the person you contacted via the sites with positive feedback to email you using the address being used by the seller in the KVR Market Place.
Another check is to ask for the Paypal account name, if that method of payment is available. If the seller in Market Place gives a different account name than the person with the good feedback, something funny could be going on.
It might seem pushy or obnoxious to demand info in this way. Don't be embarrassed to do it! If something's fishy the legit seller will want to know they're being scammed too. Wouldn't you?
_____________________________________________
Enough for now. I'll add to this thread as time allows and as advice comes in.
Buying and selling more safely
-
- Skunk Mod
- Topic Starter
- 21249 posts since 10 Jun, 2004 from Pony Pasture
Another item, after all this time.
Don't assume a successful registration means the license must be legit.
At least one large music software maker have stated that they will disable a license, even after registration, if they find that the original purchase was not completely legal. For instance, it might have been purchased with a stolen credit card number, appearing at first to be okay... right up until the card owner notices surprise charges on the account and reports it to the card issuer.
If that happens, if you've bought such a license, then even though you were able to register the software initially, it will be deregistered and you'll be left holding the bag.
Certain countries are especially well known as havens for credit card fraud, but crime knows no boundaries.
Let caution be the watchword. ALWAYS.
Don't assume a successful registration means the license must be legit.
At least one large music software maker have stated that they will disable a license, even after registration, if they find that the original purchase was not completely legal. For instance, it might have been purchased with a stolen credit card number, appearing at first to be okay... right up until the card owner notices surprise charges on the account and reports it to the card issuer.
If that happens, if you've bought such a license, then even though you were able to register the software initially, it will be deregistered and you'll be left holding the bag.
Certain countries are especially well known as havens for credit card fraud, but crime knows no boundaries.
Let caution be the watchword. ALWAYS.
-
- Skunk Mod
- Topic Starter
- 21249 posts since 10 Jun, 2004 from Pony Pasture
In light of recent events in the Market Place forum, and some possibly suspicious sellers, I thought it might be a good idea to remind everyone that:
If you use PayPal's "gift" option to pay for an online purchase, as far as PayPal is concerned you are making a gift. This means that if something goes wrong with the sale you may have no protection.
It's also a violation of PP's terms of service, meaning if you register a complaint involving a transaction that really involved goods or services, not an actual gift, you could be held liable. I don't know the exact details, but I wouldn't be surprised if suspension or cancellation of your PP account were a possible outcome.
If a seller, especially one without a long history at KVR, insists on payment via PayPal's "gift" option, your mind's alarm bells should go off. Insist on using PayPal's goods and services option instead, so you'll have protection in case of problems. If the seller refuses, the alarm bells should be joined by flashing red lights.
Play it safe! It's worth a few dollars more to know PP is assuming the risk, not you.
If you use PayPal's "gift" option to pay for an online purchase, as far as PayPal is concerned you are making a gift. This means that if something goes wrong with the sale you may have no protection.
It's also a violation of PP's terms of service, meaning if you register a complaint involving a transaction that really involved goods or services, not an actual gift, you could be held liable. I don't know the exact details, but I wouldn't be surprised if suspension or cancellation of your PP account were a possible outcome.
If a seller, especially one without a long history at KVR, insists on payment via PayPal's "gift" option, your mind's alarm bells should go off. Insist on using PayPal's goods and services option instead, so you'll have protection in case of problems. If the seller refuses, the alarm bells should be joined by flashing red lights.
Play it safe! It's worth a few dollars more to know PP is assuming the risk, not you.
-
- Skunk Mod
- Topic Starter
- 21249 posts since 10 Jun, 2004 from Pony Pasture
And another update. What follows is equal parts certainty, guesswork, and educated reconstruction. It's my opinion that it's a fairly accurate description of some recent wacky hijinks in Market Place.
One or more scammers have been selling software licenses that they just purchased, in at least one case the day before selling, using invalid payments (it seems likely to me they were bought using stolen credit card information). The idea is to sell quickly, leaving the buyer with a license that will be invalid once the fraudulent original payment becomes evident.
It's important to note that the seller promising to transfer the license before receiving payment does not guarantee that the license is valid and it's safe to pay!
Until the original seller — the person who sold the software to the Market Place seller — has payment revoked by the credit card issuer, bank, or whoever handles stolen credit card cleanup, the license will appear to be legitimate. It's only when the stolen account gets caught and shut down that the license will, in most instances, be cancelled.
And if anyone was wondering whether this involved the ALL CAPS SELLER who got really angry that anyone would dare to question his honesty, and whose thread was deleted: yes.
One or more scammers have been selling software licenses that they just purchased, in at least one case the day before selling, using invalid payments (it seems likely to me they were bought using stolen credit card information). The idea is to sell quickly, leaving the buyer with a license that will be invalid once the fraudulent original payment becomes evident.
It's important to note that the seller promising to transfer the license before receiving payment does not guarantee that the license is valid and it's safe to pay!
Until the original seller — the person who sold the software to the Market Place seller — has payment revoked by the credit card issuer, bank, or whoever handles stolen credit card cleanup, the license will appear to be legitimate. It's only when the stolen account gets caught and shut down that the license will, in most instances, be cancelled.
And if anyone was wondering whether this involved the ALL CAPS SELLER who got really angry that anyone would dare to question his honesty, and whose thread was deleted: yes.
-
- Skunk Mod
- Topic Starter
- 21249 posts since 10 Jun, 2004 from Pony Pasture
Another instance has come up of a brand new member trying to resell a license that turned out to be invalid. I can't be certain since I can't (and shouldn't be able to) access private financial details and the like, but I strongly suspect the reseller bought it with a stolen credit card.
I presume the reseller was hoping to dump the license before the original seller caught the fraudulent transaction — but the card's real owner found out in time, and the license was invalidated. Because of that, in this case the would-be buyer didn't lose any money.
So here's a fresh reminder that even if a license appears to be valid, it can suddenly be invalidated if it turns out to have been bought (by the reseller) using a stolen credit card. This might happen too late to get your money back.
In the past few months we've also seen at least one person trying to sell the same license to multiple buyers simultaneously. I'm sure there are other ripoffs I've never heard of. These are just a couple that have appeared and bitten KVR users recently.
I can't emphasize enough how important it is to know the seller.
BobTheSynthNut, who over the past year and a half has made 3,190 posts on KVR about his favorite DAW, why he loves Coldplay's latest song, the bumper sticker he saw the other day, and how to get that "wibble" bass all the cool kids love — probably a safe person to buy from. Maybe not to hang out listening to choons with, but there's no accounting for taste.
AmazingDealzz419, who registered two days ago and immediately started offering to sell every kind of software, hardware, semi-squishyware, and toogoodtobetrueware, and who sent a PM saying he just happens to have eight copies of Nuendo that he'll sell for 4,800,000 rupiyah (about US $350) each because he found your name on a list of honest trustworthy businesspersons… I don't know about you but I'd give that "bargain" a pass and keep looking elsewhere. (Might want to let a moderator know about it too.)
BTW, I used rupiyah above for a reason. Google countries with most online fraud to see the most likely sources of Really Bad Deals. Obviously not everyone from Indonesia is a fraudster, and not every Dane is honest as a northern summer day is long. But combined with other heads-up factors, knowing where a would-be reseller is from might provide enough warning to keep you on the safe side.
If you're in doubt, ask the seller where he or she is, and — in a separate request — ask if it's okay with them to have a moderator check that information. I'll be glad to do so, provided the seller has given prior permission. (If the seller says "Oh, I'm in Los Angeles" but suddenly clams up when asked about checking, that could be a red flag.)
I presume the reseller was hoping to dump the license before the original seller caught the fraudulent transaction — but the card's real owner found out in time, and the license was invalidated. Because of that, in this case the would-be buyer didn't lose any money.
So here's a fresh reminder that even if a license appears to be valid, it can suddenly be invalidated if it turns out to have been bought (by the reseller) using a stolen credit card. This might happen too late to get your money back.
In the past few months we've also seen at least one person trying to sell the same license to multiple buyers simultaneously. I'm sure there are other ripoffs I've never heard of. These are just a couple that have appeared and bitten KVR users recently.
I can't emphasize enough how important it is to know the seller.
BobTheSynthNut, who over the past year and a half has made 3,190 posts on KVR about his favorite DAW, why he loves Coldplay's latest song, the bumper sticker he saw the other day, and how to get that "wibble" bass all the cool kids love — probably a safe person to buy from. Maybe not to hang out listening to choons with, but there's no accounting for taste.
AmazingDealzz419, who registered two days ago and immediately started offering to sell every kind of software, hardware, semi-squishyware, and toogoodtobetrueware, and who sent a PM saying he just happens to have eight copies of Nuendo that he'll sell for 4,800,000 rupiyah (about US $350) each because he found your name on a list of honest trustworthy businesspersons… I don't know about you but I'd give that "bargain" a pass and keep looking elsewhere. (Might want to let a moderator know about it too.)
BTW, I used rupiyah above for a reason. Google countries with most online fraud to see the most likely sources of Really Bad Deals. Obviously not everyone from Indonesia is a fraudster, and not every Dane is honest as a northern summer day is long. But combined with other heads-up factors, knowing where a would-be reseller is from might provide enough warning to keep you on the safe side.
If you're in doubt, ask the seller where he or she is, and — in a separate request — ask if it's okay with them to have a moderator check that information. I'll be glad to do so, provided the seller has given prior permission. (If the seller says "Oh, I'm in Los Angeles" but suddenly clams up when asked about checking, that could be a red flag.)