Does anyone know how you would go about activating Trim on The receptor.
ime asking because I just installed a Samsung 840 pro 512GB.
How do you activate Trim On The receptor?
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Bryan@MuseResearch Bryan@MuseResearch https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=9067
- MUSEician
- 618 posts since 18 Sep, 2003 from Silicon Valley
Receptor does not support Trim, and in fact I don't know any enterprise-class products that do, as that feature tends to make the SSD wear out faster.
We've gone go great lengths in our SSD masters to maximize drive life, and they have held up very well in the field, but I don't see us supporting TRIM any time soon because of the concern over accelerated wear.
Bryan
We've gone go great lengths in our SSD masters to maximize drive life, and they have held up very well in the field, but I don't see us supporting TRIM any time soon because of the concern over accelerated wear.
Bryan
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- KVRist
- 103 posts since 10 Jan, 2007
From wikipedia:
The Trim command is designed to enable the operating system to notify the SSD which pages no longer contain valid data due to erases either by the user or operating system itself. During a delete operation, the OS will both mark the sectors as free for new data and send a Trim command to the SSD to be marked as no longer valid. After that the SSD knows not to relocate data from the affected blocks during garbage collection. This results in fewer writes to the flash, reducing write amplification and increasing drive life.
So apart from performance improvements, trim may even improve the drive life.
By the way, I have a similar question: is it possible to defragment the harddrive of a receptor?
The Trim command is designed to enable the operating system to notify the SSD which pages no longer contain valid data due to erases either by the user or operating system itself. During a delete operation, the OS will both mark the sectors as free for new data and send a Trim command to the SSD to be marked as no longer valid. After that the SSD knows not to relocate data from the affected blocks during garbage collection. This results in fewer writes to the flash, reducing write amplification and increasing drive life.
So apart from performance improvements, trim may even improve the drive life.
By the way, I have a similar question: is it possible to defragment the harddrive of a receptor?
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Bryan@MuseResearch Bryan@MuseResearch https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=9067
- MUSEician
- 618 posts since 18 Sep, 2003 from Silicon Valley
Hi Fedde
I'll be meeting with a product manager from Samsung later today... From what I understand about Samsung's version of Trim, it increases write cycles and lessens drive life. They did a presentation on the technology and it was really clear that it is unacceptable for use in Receptor. I'll report back!
Just in general: a lot of people don't understand that reading or writing to an SSD causes it to wear, and the cells have a limited number of cycles before they wear out and have to be discarded. Magnetic hard drives are much superior in this regard, but have other downsides that make them less desirable than the SSDs, speed being the major factor. We avoid any thing we can to shorten the drive's life, for obvious reasons. This is especially important in Receptor (or any computer music system) where you are hitting the drive 10's of thousands of times streaming data off the disc.
Re. Defrag: The Linux OS automatically defragments in the course of normal operation. As a result, there are no utilities to do de-frag manually.
Cheers
Bryan
I'll be meeting with a product manager from Samsung later today... From what I understand about Samsung's version of Trim, it increases write cycles and lessens drive life. They did a presentation on the technology and it was really clear that it is unacceptable for use in Receptor. I'll report back!
Just in general: a lot of people don't understand that reading or writing to an SSD causes it to wear, and the cells have a limited number of cycles before they wear out and have to be discarded. Magnetic hard drives are much superior in this regard, but have other downsides that make them less desirable than the SSDs, speed being the major factor. We avoid any thing we can to shorten the drive's life, for obvious reasons. This is especially important in Receptor (or any computer music system) where you are hitting the drive 10's of thousands of times streaming data off the disc.
Re. Defrag: The Linux OS automatically defragments in the course of normal operation. As a result, there are no utilities to do de-frag manually.
Cheers
Bryan
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 144 posts since 20 Feb, 2013
Hi bryan
Please get back to us when you have spoken to the samsung rep.
The main reason i asked about trim to start with was because i noticed a significant performance improvment when i activated trim on my mac book pro and on my red hat linux installation on another workstation .I am using samsung 480 pro drives (512gb models) in both systems and in my receptor.
Thx andy
Please get back to us when you have spoken to the samsung rep.
The main reason i asked about trim to start with was because i noticed a significant performance improvment when i activated trim on my mac book pro and on my red hat linux installation on another workstation .I am using samsung 480 pro drives (512gb models) in both systems and in my receptor.
Thx andy
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Bryan@MuseResearch Bryan@MuseResearch https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=9067
- MUSEician
- 618 posts since 18 Sep, 2003 from Silicon Valley
Here is the summation of my discussion:
The product manager for the SSD drives in the US explained trim in detail. TRIM has a number of aspects to it, basically maintaining the drive's health by doing housekeeping, garbage collection, and assisting the efficiency of the wear-leveling system in a drive. He is a musician and he knows what a Receptor does, which is read thousands of times in any given situation, and write just a little.
He confirmed that TRIM can accelerate the wear somewhat in a drive, but that in normal use it is not that big of a deal, so the forums that say it wears out your drive prematurely are wrong. After some discussion of how people use Receptor, he recommended that we DO NOT run TRIM, as we aren't writing often enough for it to be worth the hassle and TRIM can reduce performance if it runs as an independent task. He said that if we were to run it, which he does not think is at all necessary, then it should be something that someone runs as a utility every few months manually.
He also mentioned that data center SSDs, which Samsung also makes, integrates the functions of TRIM into the controller itself (like Linux automatically defragmenting) and that we should look at those drives as well, which we will do.
Its funny that I had that discussion with him, because he had just finished a meeting with an IT guy from Yahoo, who are seeing the size of their drives shrink over several months of intense use. This is because they are constantly writing and updating the content on the drives, but have TRIM turned off.
TO the best of my knowledge, we've never seen a drive shrink considerably in its size as a result of not running TRIM, so I think we've made the right decision to leave it disabled, and if it becomes an issue, I think we would want to do it as a utility that gets run every few months, but only if it actually proves to be a problem, which as of yet, it has not.
One more thing: he also brought up that the new NAND gates used in the Samsung drives do not suffer from read degradation as previous drives do, which is really good news, but also mentioned something that I've NEVER heard mentioned from ANYONE in the SSD industry: that systems with SSD drives should not be left powered off for extended periods of time, or the data integrity can be compromised. This was a surprise to me because I thought that the NAND gates were pretty much impervious to charge leakage, but apparently ALL Flash memory, on your Phone, in your camera, in that four year old iPod in your closet, and in your Receptor requires powering up every once in a while (he wasn't specific on how often!) in order to refresh the charge levels. More info on that as we learn more...
Great discussion, thanks for bringing this up!
Bryan
The product manager for the SSD drives in the US explained trim in detail. TRIM has a number of aspects to it, basically maintaining the drive's health by doing housekeeping, garbage collection, and assisting the efficiency of the wear-leveling system in a drive. He is a musician and he knows what a Receptor does, which is read thousands of times in any given situation, and write just a little.
He confirmed that TRIM can accelerate the wear somewhat in a drive, but that in normal use it is not that big of a deal, so the forums that say it wears out your drive prematurely are wrong. After some discussion of how people use Receptor, he recommended that we DO NOT run TRIM, as we aren't writing often enough for it to be worth the hassle and TRIM can reduce performance if it runs as an independent task. He said that if we were to run it, which he does not think is at all necessary, then it should be something that someone runs as a utility every few months manually.
He also mentioned that data center SSDs, which Samsung also makes, integrates the functions of TRIM into the controller itself (like Linux automatically defragmenting) and that we should look at those drives as well, which we will do.
Its funny that I had that discussion with him, because he had just finished a meeting with an IT guy from Yahoo, who are seeing the size of their drives shrink over several months of intense use. This is because they are constantly writing and updating the content on the drives, but have TRIM turned off.
TO the best of my knowledge, we've never seen a drive shrink considerably in its size as a result of not running TRIM, so I think we've made the right decision to leave it disabled, and if it becomes an issue, I think we would want to do it as a utility that gets run every few months, but only if it actually proves to be a problem, which as of yet, it has not.
One more thing: he also brought up that the new NAND gates used in the Samsung drives do not suffer from read degradation as previous drives do, which is really good news, but also mentioned something that I've NEVER heard mentioned from ANYONE in the SSD industry: that systems with SSD drives should not be left powered off for extended periods of time, or the data integrity can be compromised. This was a surprise to me because I thought that the NAND gates were pretty much impervious to charge leakage, but apparently ALL Flash memory, on your Phone, in your camera, in that four year old iPod in your closet, and in your Receptor requires powering up every once in a while (he wasn't specific on how often!) in order to refresh the charge levels. More info on that as we learn more...
Great discussion, thanks for bringing this up!
Bryan
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 144 posts since 20 Feb, 2013
Hi Bryan
Thanks allot for all that information.And for taking the time to research an awnser to my question.
The last bit came as quite a supprise,not rearly an issue for me though my receptor is on most of the day.,!
Thx Andy
Thanks allot for all that information.And for taking the time to research an awnser to my question.
The last bit came as quite a supprise,not rearly an issue for me though my receptor is on most of the day.,!
Thx Andy
